Salvation

This topic contains 426 replies, has 26 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 4 months, 4 weeks ago.

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  • #3342
     NickHassan 
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    In your teaching on salvation you make serious doctrinal errors. You say Jesus is the Firstborn and mankind is saved by Jesus. You ignore the command of Jesus that we too 'must be born again of water and The Holy Spirit'. You teach that a simple intellectual assent and prayer are sufficient to achieve that salvation. That ignores the demonstration of the meaning shown by the followers of Jesus in Acts who brought sinners to salvation through repentance ,baptism and the laying on of hands to receive the Spirit.If salvation is not taught correctly then the door is being barred to your followers so the rest is irrelevant. NICK

    #3343
     MrBob 
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    In the salvation page, if I remember correctly, t8 (the webmaster) says that the sinner's prayer was only for a suggestion or example.

    As for being born again, I agree with you. You must be born again to see the Kingdom of God:

    “1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.”
    – John 3:1-21, King James Version (KJV)

    #3344
     Ramblinrose 
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    An interesting study on the subject.

    http://www.intergate.com/%7Ejcordaro/Born_Again.html

    Shalom

    #3345
     t8 
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    thx for your input guys and nice avatar Ramblinrose. I will try reading your link later as I was writing this post before you posted.

    Being born again is certainly necessary in order to see the Kingdom of Heaven, but my question is how does one become born again and what does it mean to be born again?

    I think that being “born again” is the same term as “being born from above” and maybe the same as receiving the Spirit of God, i.e the moment that God's Spirit lives inside you.

    Of course his Spirit can only live in you if you have been forgiven and cleansed from your sin and Jesus has enabled this possibility to all men. As we know, God cannot inhabit a sinful temple. So thanks to Christ who has given us the priviledge of being one with himself and God through the forgiveness of sins and cleansing of all unrighteousness.

    But in order for a man to be forgiven, he must repent and consciously serve God and this is indeed the central message of the salvation page and seems to be the message that was preached in the Book of Acts too.

    I believe that being born from above is the desired result of obeying the gospel message and as far as I know it is not recorded in scripture that anyone who preached the gospel actually mentioned being born again at that point. I guess that could be due to scant detail in the book of Acts or that is was not preached in the gospel. What appears to be important was/is the need of God's grace and repentance in order to receive salvation. After that there is a lot more to learn about true faith than just the initial gospel message as we know.

    So my point is that being born again seems to be a teaching rather than the gospel itself. I know of only 2 scriptures that mention born-again. 1 Peter 1:23 and the scripture that MrBob quoted in the last post. Yet in scriptures that talk about salvation we do not see it mentioned at all.

    E.g. In 2 Corinthians 7:10 we read:
    Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

    Luke 1:77
    to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,

    Ephesians 1:13
    And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

    The last scripture shows us that we can receive the Holy Spirit after the Gospel of our salvation.

    If we look at Acts 8:27-39, we read about a eunuch who heard the gospel. Upon reading about Christ in the Old Testament, Philip took that golden opportunity and preached the good news about Jesus and as they travelled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized? So I guess it is safe to say that Philip mentioned baptism in water when he preached the gospel. But notice that the Eunuch didn't say “What must I do to be born again”. It is possible that Philip could have mentioned being born again, but that it is not recorded there, nor is it referred too in the Eunuch's questioning or speech.

    Moving on we have an interesting scenario in Acts 8:14-17

    14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.
    15 When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
    16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
    17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

    So we can see here that the initial message (word of God) enabled them to be baptized in the name of Jesus and they received the Spirit later on. The next scripture below also shows us a believer who hadn't even been baptized into Jesus name.

    Acts 18:25
    He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[ 18:25 Or with fervor in the Spirit] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.

    My conclusion is that my salvation page doesn't spell everything out in one writing, but rather it gives the essential message of how to be saved and I trust that such people who respond will hopefully be lead to godly things beyond that, if they accept it of course. I look at it as a message to get you on first base as a player not as a home run. One step at a time I suppose, but I actually do not have a problem mentioning that we must be born again as this is true. But to make such a statement may mean that I would have to spell it out and perhaps extend the writing out quite a bit. I am not sure if this is beneficial at this point. Especially considering that many think Born Again Christians are weird. I suppose I would rather steer clear of stereotypes and just give the initial and important message.

    However if being born again is receiving the Spirit of God, then I actually have mentioned that on the Salvation page anyway. My quote from the Salvation page is as follows:

    You are required to be obedient to God from now on. This is easy if you really love God. Being obedient includes Jesus command to be baptized (to acknowledge your acceptance of the gospel) and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Acts 2:38
    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    So Acts 2:38 tells us that we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit after being baptized in the name of Jesus. My salvation page aids in getting a person to be baptized in the name of Jesus and then I mention that after this, one will receive the Holy Spirit.

    John 3:3
    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    After these words, Jesus says the following about salvation:

    14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15   That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Anyway as always, I am open to being corrected.

    #3346
     NickHassan 
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    We are not greater than Peter or Paul nor the Holy Spirit who inspired their teaching ,their writings and their actions. We need to learn from them and to submit to the Word. I challenge anyone to read Acts in full and then say that the evidence from the work of these apostles was that after repentance it was not NECESSARY and URGENT that all be baptised in water and hands laid on to receive the Holy Spirit.This is the WAY of salvation and the response to Jesus's command that we MUST be born again of water and the Spirit. As Paul taught in Gal 3.27 to be CLOTHED in Christ we need to be baptised and it is confirmed by Peter in his first letter Ch 3v20-21. We must all wear the same WHITE CLOTHING [Rev 19.8]-JESUS. We must all enter through the same GATE-JESUS[Jn 10]-those that enter by other means are theives and robbers.The wedding guest wrongly dressed faces the fate of the unsaved.
    Our Father is a God who requires SIGNS and WITNESSES and the sign demanded of the jews was circumcision. But the CIRCUMCISION OF CHRIST is spelled out in Coll 2.11-12-BAPTISM. Again water is one of the WITNESSES of our salvation shown in 1Jn 5.8.

    #3347
     t8 
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    But the point is, that the salvation page mentions both baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit.

    #3348
     t8 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ June 11 2004,23:19)
    An interesting study on the subject.

    http://www.intergate.com/%7Ejcordaro/Born_Again.html

    Shalom


    Yes I went there and printed it out. I started to read it and it looks very interesting. I haven't heard this teaching before, but will endeavour to read it all.

    #3341
     NickHassan 
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    Scripture is pure and consistant. If being born again of water related to natural birth why is the word AGAIN used? No other scripture among the hundreds involving natural birth uses the term “of water”. Paul could not “see” the kingdom till he received the Spirit by the laying on of hands in Antioch [followed immediately by baptism as in Acts 10 when the Spirit fell on Peter's hearers] and his blindness was cured. Likewise we are spiritually blind till we obey God's simple demands.” Wisdom is justified of all her children” The foundation of the doctrine of Christ specified by Paul in Hebrews 6.1-2 includes baptism and the laying on of hands.First we should obey and wisdom will follow.

    #3349
     ringo111 
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    Jesus never says you must be born again in this world to enter the Kingdom!!

    all he says it you must be born again to enter the Kingdom of heaven.

    Otherwise, where would be the hope for moses, or anyone before Jesus baptism. I think you should rethink your position Nick.

    Yes the other things are good, But the only required thing to do is to please GoD. GoD has made Jesus above us, and entrusts him with the people of earth, so then you are to please Jesus, and by doing so, please GoD, because GoD gave jesus that authority. As it says in tha OT “kiss the son, lest he is angry and you be destroyed in his way”

    What happened to the theif of the cross demenstrates this clearly. He did none of the traditional ceremony, but just pleased Jesus by egknowledging that Jesus was wrongly persecuted, and asked for jesus to remember him when he came into his Kingdom.

    So please rethink your Dogmatic retric of oppression which has been handed down, by people with power authoritan complexes. Jesus told his Followers not to be like the rulers of this world, lording theyre power over others.

    Jesus has been given way more power than what the mainstream accepts. He is the sacrifice, that chooses who will enter, Not you, not the church, not a system, But He Jesus, you dont own him, nomatter how much flattery you give him. He will Judge you according to what you have done to others. Parable sheep and the goats. Revelation.

    Actually think about it, think for yourself. GoD does not forsake those who do not hear. We are all his creation.

    #3350
     NickHassan 
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    The confusion of opinions about this topic evidences the lack of the Holy Spirit. There is only 1 way and if you fear God you would be wise to follow it as most will not be saved. If you think belief or obedience to the Commandments is enough read James 2 v 10 and 19. If you think fellowship and signs and wonders are enough try Mt 7.22 and Lk 13.26. If you don't think you need the Spirit try Rom 8.9. If you want safety follow Jesus into his death and resurrection Rom 6.15.

    #3351
     NickHassan 
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    Dear R,
    God is sovereign and though He has defined the way of salvation as following Jesus He makes exceptions as is His right.The Thief was saved by this means-if Jesus declares him and Moses righteous we cannot disagree. It does not alter the fact that we must obey His demand to be born again of water and the Spirit.
    If you look at the Sheep and goat Judgement of Matt 25 it is another exception-salvation by works -a fulfillment of the promise made by Jesus that those who give His followers a cup of water because they belong to Him they will not lose their reward.We, however,will not be there having avoided condemnation and already passed from death to life.

    #3352
     ringo111 
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    Jesus never specifies when you must be born again, he doesnt give a shutoff point. Like a date or time. Apart from the secconed death.

    What he does do is, tell someone who cannot be baptised for the forgivness of sins, (theif on the cross), If there is one acception, then it is the rule in this case, For Jesus said that you cannot enter heaven unless you are born again.

    If you needed to recieve the baptism in this life, then the robber would not have gone to paradise with Jesus.

    Therefore, GoD has not limited Jesus saving power to the grave, But has made him Lord over all created things.

    Now this doesnt mean that we are to disobey the command, But gives us more confidence of Jesus Position that GoD has made for him. That we should obey his commands.

    There is no lack of the holy spirit here. The holy spirit, is only to testify with you that you have life, and to lead you into all truth. But having the holy spirit, in himself does not give you life. Not eternal life, That Judgment, is for Jesus to hand out, according to what GoD has decreed.

    The holy spirit is given to the whole world, but the pressence of the promise, and help in guiding into all truth, is for those who believe and ask. As Jesus taught.

    #3353
     NickHassan 
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    Hi R,
    Well there is a shutoff point. When you die you choices end and you are then dependant on mercy alone. And God has specified those He will show that mercy to and it is not that many.
    It is far safer to secure your salvation as He specified now and remove the nagging doubts because none of us deserve anything from the Creator of all things and we cannot negotiate a special deal or expect ignorance to be of any advantage anymore.
    The Holy Spirit is not given to the world but only to us-to teach, encourage ,comfort and intercede for and give eternal life to those in Jesus.

    #3354
     ringo111 
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    The holy spirit was sent to the whole world, to convict it, so that there is no excuse.

    But sent to those who believe in another way.

    #3355
     NickHassan 
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    No I don't agree.
    The Holy Spirit is sent to fill the Body of Christ.
    No denomination can claim to be led by the Holy Spirit as the Spirit inhabits people, not traditions.
    Yes the Spirit proves the world wrong about sin, jusice and condemnation but by teaching individuals-of course that will make those folk unpopular which is the price of following Jesus

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