Revelation 1:8

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  • #818251
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form,

    God is not a man, but angels/messengers can come in that form or likeness. 

    Numbers 23:19
    God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind.

    2 Chronicles 36:15-16
    The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place; 16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.…

    Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus explained that it is not “God” in the meaning that you are assuming, but simply “the Father”.

    Yes, God is the Father.

    Ephesians 4:6
    one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    because it was He, Jesus, the Son Himself, who visited Abraham, and it was also Him whom Moses, and Israeli elders, and Isaiah saw! And I know that you don’t deny this, because the Father is invisible, and so only the Son can declare Him, and the Son had declared the Father to these people.

    I don’t deny this, I think this is likely the case. The invisible God has many visible images including us, but there is one image (the first) who is the fullness of the deity. One who is the exact REPRESENTATION of his being. God sends messengers. If he turned up by himself, you wouldn’t see him. You could hear his voice though. such as when God said: And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased”.

    Hebrews 1:3
    The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    So when God appears to people, it is often through angels, sometimes the Angel of the YHWH, other times the son of the living God. Now it is quite possible that before Jesus came in the flesh, he was this Angel of YHWH that appeared to our prophets and fathers. One thing to note here is that the Angel of YHWH is not mentioned while Jesus lived in the world.

    Jesus is the image of God. He is the representation of him. Thus he cannot be the God that he represents and cannot be the God that he is the image of. He is not the source but an offspring thus why he is the son. The Father is the source, thus why he is the Father. It really is so simple that a child could grasp it. But adults like to think they are intelligent and came up with the dodgy Trinity Doctrine that no one can fathom.

    #818252
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    That’s why, Jesus said in John 8:24  “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

    Who do you think Jesus is claiming to be in the verse above? “I am He” or simply “I Am”, the name of God in the Old Testament, because that’s who He is! That is the title or name that YHWH assumes many times in the OT. And read it carefully because Jesus said that if you do not believe that Jesus is “I Am”, you will die in your sins. That’s Jesus saying, not me, so don’t you say that I am putting words in Jesus’ mouth. I am not. It is written as it is.

    In in John 18:5-6. Jesus answered a simple question: “Are you Jesus of Nazareth”. He answered: “I am”.  He was not claiming to be God, He simply answered the question correctly as you would if asked the same question but with your name being mentioned. Of course people will not fall backward when you say it because you are not the son of God are you. You don’t have to be God for people to fall backward or position yourself as prostrate of the floor. This happens to angels too.

    Now in in John 18:5-6 Jesus is simply saying that you will die in your sins if you do not believe in him and who he is. Saying that this means we will die in our sins if we do not believe that he is God is adding to the text and we shouldn’t do that. Remember when Jesus asked Peter who he was, he declared that he was the messiah and son of the living God. No mention of Jesus being God in his confession and Jesus was so impressed by his confession that he said: “Upon this rock I will build my Church”. I wonder if Peter will die in his sins because he failed to acknowledge in scripture that Jesus was God. Sorry Peter, but technically speaking you said a lot of truth, but you never taught that Jesus was God. You will die in your sins. Yeah right as they say.

    Togel, all you arguments are just you spouting Trinitarian propaganda. It is very easy for me to expose these arguments you make.

    For more on this subject, you might like to read this writing which goes into this subject at greater depth.

    John 18:5-6

     

    #818589
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    It’s been very long… been very busy with projects, and evangelizing the Moslems… you know what? Debating with them does not feel too much different from debating with you! They like to use Bible verses that you use, to prove that Jesus is not God. LOL!

    I don’t remember quite much the plot of our discussion, but what I remember is that you twist the meaning of many verses into your own doctrine of unitarianism. The Bible clearly writes that Thomas said to Jesus My Lord and My God, but you tried to give a different meaning to that.

    We also read that the Scripture clearly says that YHWH visited Abraham in human form, and you said that that is not God, practically saying that YHWH is not God, or that the Scripture (OT) is wrong, or a lesser revelation than the NT.

    You have not addressed the Isaiah verse where Isaiah saw the LORD sitting on His Throne. You cannot say that this is another “agent”. I think you will twist this again into somewhat Isaiah saw only a vision not reality or that Isaiah is a lesser revelation. Something like that.

    You should also read John 14:23

    23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

    If Jesus is only “the image” of the Father in the sense that He is nobody, not a God personality, then he could not have said that and be truthful. Jesus said that He (Jesus) and the Father would come and live with anyone who loves Jesus. If Jesus is not God, this is simply impossible. Because there are billions of believers who loves Jesus, and there will be billions of Jesus… without Jesus being omnipotent and omnipresent, just like the Father, this will be impossible.

    Also Paul said that in Jesus dwells the full deity. He did not say “half deity” or “part deity” or “sub-deity”… what does that mean? He clearly says that the Spirit that lives in the human body of Jesus was fully God. And Paul knows that this God is not the Father. So Paul was saying that Jesus, God the Son, is fully deity, and dwells in that human body called Jesus.

    But I guess you will take all efforts possible to twist these verses or “impose” your doctrine into these verses so that these verses do not read like they should any more. You will then be unable to read the Scripture as it is written. So, I guess I will leave you at that. I am afraid that you will finally got totally lost in your understanding of the Scripture because you cannot read it as it is any more, but instead twist everything to fit your theology.

     

    #818716
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    It’s been very long… been very busy with projects, and evangelizing the Moslems… you know what? Debating with them does not feel too much different from debating with you! They like to use Bible verses that you use, to prove that Jesus is not God. LOL!

    And herein lies a tragedy. We alienate both Muslim and Jew with the Trinity Doctrine when it is not necessary and wrong.

    We need to convince both that Jesus is the messiah and the son of God. We need to show them that God made him Lord. While Muslims might give lip service to Jesus being the messiah, they do not believe that he died for our sins and rose from the dead some days later.

    Further, if you are trying to preach the Trinity to these people, then you do so in vain. That is a shame IMO.

    #818717
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    We also read that the Scripture clearly says that YHWH visited Abraham in human form, and you said that that is not God, practically saying that YHWH is not God, or that the Scripture (OT) is wrong, or a lesser revelation than the NT.

    You do not understand. YHWH sends messengers. It is YHWH, but through his messenger. God is invisible and an eternal spirit. How do you think you are going to talk to a being like that? Shake his hand, converse in English, fight with him? Of course if you do any of that, it is the or a messenger of YHWH.

    Jesus is the image of the invisible God. This is the truth. He is not the invisible God. but his exact image. The woman is not the man, but is the image of him. Yes they have the same nature, but an image is not the source. Likewise, Jesus is the image of God and has his nature, but he is not that source and not that God. In the most simplistic of terms, God is a ‘he’, not ‘they’.

    I had the privilege of encouraging a muslim to become Christian. He was searching and the things Christians said to him prior were terrible. I accepted him and he agreed that Jesus was the son of God and the messiah in the true sense. He agreed that Mohammed was a false prophet. I did not in any way need to teach him of the third century doctrine of the Trinity. That would have been teaching him tradition and dead religion.

    #818718
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Also Paul said that in Jesus dwells the full deity. He did not say “half deity” or “part deity” or “sub-deity”… what does that mean? He clearly says that the Spirit that lives in the human body of Jesus was fully God. And Paul knows that this God is not the Father. So Paul was saying that Jesus, God the Son, is fully deity, and dwells in that human body called Jesus.

    Divine nature is not proof you are God just as Spirit is not proof that you are God. While God is a Spirit and has divine nature, so it is that angels are spirits and we can participate in divine nature. You would agree that angels and men are not God right? But you need to accept that the son of God is not God, but of him. He is not of himself. is he? No, he is of the Father who is God making Jesus the son of God. This is what the very definition of Father and son is right?. God is the Father and the only God and Jesus is his son. If you do not believe it, you reject Jesus and Paul’s own words.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    1 Timothy 1:17
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
    Amen.

    If you preach or teach the Trinity, then ask yourself why your teaching isn’t the same as what Jesus and the apostles taught. The answer is you are the victim of tradition and you teach and preach in vain if this is your gospel.

    If I am the only man here to stand like an Oak tree and defend this, then so be it.

    #818732
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    I remember as a young believer being at a revival service where the preacher was preaching Num23:19 God is not a man that he should lie,neither the son of man that he should repent, with his emphasis on God’s faithfulness to his word,that we should trust God’s word.He was really harping on this and repeating this verse over and over. I didn’t know the bible well at all but the thought occurred to me that if God is not a man,nor a son of man because men are fallible and he’s not then how is he faithful to his word by becoming a man? Apparently I wasn’t the only one to start thinking this because a woman who spoke after him said yes God is not a man but he became one to redeem us …etc. And the following night we got a sermon about Moses and the I AM revelation with the connotation of it meaning I am what I am and I will be what I will be and by then I was just believing what they said for it’s a sin to question God’s Word. But if God is not a man who doesn’t lie or change his mind then why does he lie by changing his mind to become a man? is that what he had to do to save us? But the great I AM wasn’t lying because he implied also that I will be what I will be. It’s in many ways like has anyone seen God? Moses knew God face to face,yet no man can see my face and live said God to Moses,but got to see his back parts.? So he goes from being a good face to face friend with God,to getting the consolation prize of seeing his back parts? Is this really a God who doesn’t change his mind?

    Also not long after that at age 17,I read a book called “Jesus in Exodus” written by a former Jew who had converted to Christianity in which he explained how it was really Jesus on Mt Sinai who had given the law and of course all the types and shadows of Christ etc. It made sense but it didn’t.

    If Jesus was the Logos ever by God’s side through eternity,then was he the one who gave the Mosaic law?” for the law came by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”,Jesus in St John says to the Jews “is it not written in your law”. Should he not say my law or at least our law? The way St John and Paul contrast the law and Jesus I have a hard time believing they would fully agree with the Jesus in Exodus theories as to Jesus being Jehovah,angel of Jehovah,shadow of Jehovah or whoever it was that appeared and spoke there.

    Gal 4:4,5   but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    This verse makes me think of Jesus being held in reserve until the time appointed by God to call the whole world to himself which is much different than the law or lawgiver.

     

     

    #818764
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    God is not a man but he became one to redeem us …etc.

    But scripture says that God sent his son into the world. He sent his son to save us so we could become sons.

    He didn’t become one of us so we could become God.

    #818765
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Also not long after that at age 17,I read a book called “Jesus in Exodus” written by a former Jew who had converted to Christianity in which he explained how it was really Jesus on Mt Sinai who had given the law and of course all the types and shadows of Christ etc. It made sense but it didn’t.

    Personally I think there is a good chance that Jesus was the Angel of the LORD.

    One reason is that angel means messenger and Jesus is clearly called messenger. Secondly, the messenger of YHWH is not mentioned when Jesus is on Earth. Finally, if he is that messenger, then Jesus is not YHWH. Rather he is his main messenger.

    And as you pointed out. God is invisible. But I say that we can see his messengers.

    Let’s be real about it. How can a man see and eternal invisible Spirit. We cannot. We can see his glory and we can see his messengers. God is way beyond us, but relates to us in ways we can comprehend.

    #818766
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    If Jesus was the Logos ever by God’s side through eternity,then was he the one who gave the Mosaic law?” for the law came by Moses,but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”,Jesus in St John says to the Jews “is it not written in your law”. Should he not say my law or at least our law? The way St John and Paul contrast the law and Jesus I have a hard time believing they would fully agree with the Jesus in Exodus theories as to Jesus being Jehovah,angel of Jehovah,shadow of Jehovah or whoever it was that appeared and spoke there.

    Why not. The old and new covenants are complimentary.  The old leads us to the new. God has a plan right? Jesus is at God’s right hand side right? God wants to save man right? Jesus asked the cup be removed from him despite this plan right? But Jesus was faithful to God and always did his will, even when it got tough. Thank God for Jesus.

    #818767
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Gal 4:4,5   but when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

    This verse makes me think of Jesus being held in reserve until the time appointed by God to call the whole world to himself which is much different than the law or lawgiver.

    God is all knowing. He had the plan of salvation worked out from the beginning. He didn’t scurry to come up with a backup plan when things headed south. No, he is the God of many worlds. He is eternal. His creation displays his eternal glory. He has it all worked out. If they choose this, then he has already thought of that.

    For us there are mysteries. There is nothing mysterious to God though.

    #818823
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    I do think Paul thought of Jesus as an angel/spirit in his preexistence-in the form of God.And I understand how the angel of the Lord appearances in the OT can be thought of as Christ.I’ve even said this on this forum before.But to say Jesus was the Jehovah that appeared on Sinai and gave the Law I don’t see the NT teaching. Do you think it really was Jehovah that appeared and gave the law to Moses? Exodus says it was Jehovah and he came to the door of the tabernacle and talked to Moses face to face.Why should we not believe this? even if we only accept the later story that only God’s backparts were seen it still implies he’s in the form of a man. And if it was really Jesus that appeared on Sinai then why protest if people call Jesus Jehovah or God? In terms of the NT was it the Father or the Son that appeared to Moses and gave the law? If it be the Father then clearly he’s been seen and if it be the Son then clearly he’s Jehovah and perhaps even his own father.

    But what saith Paul in Galatians?3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Here Paul claims the law was ordained by angels,and Stephen says the same in Acts7:53. Does this means it was angels who gave the law or appeared at Sinai? And if this is so then why didn’t Exodus say this? Is this angels interpretation not another later revelation which changes the first yet again,and from what I understand is what the Pharisees also taught.

    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Paul isn’t saying Christ is also a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ. If so then why not just stay under the schoolmaster?

     

     

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