Revelation 1:8

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  • #818056
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    you said:

    The Father is greater than the Son. Full stop.

    =====

    Why full stop? Why in other verses you can twist the meaning in any way you like but here full stop? This is clearly biased.

    REad this:

    Joh 14:12  “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

    The same word Jesus used, that we will do GREATER works than what Jesus did. Can we? So, what does greater here mean?

    Remember, Jesus is in the form of a human being, His abilities are limited. That’s His duties:

    Philiphian 2:5-7

    5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
    6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.

    So, at Jesus’ state at the time that He spoke those words, Jesus has made Himself nothing.

    You also said this:

    ==========

    I will let Paul teach you.

    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    ==============

    You read well: Paul was talking about a crucified man, A MAN! We don’t worship man, but Jesus before He was incarnate was not a man. But that man Jesus, whom was crucified, was made both Lord and Messiah by God, which include the Son. The Son was not originally flesh, but was made flesh, and this flesh was what they crucified. But the Spiritual Son, who created the world according to Hebrew 1:10, was already God. When Jesus was made Lord, then since then the Son will have that physical body, the glorified physical body, which He did not have before His incarnation.

    #818057
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    And talking about LIGHT, I read these verses:

    Revelation 21:22-23

    22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
    23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

    Lord God Almithty and the Lamb are its temple….

    God illuminated, but the light is the Lamb…..

    Seems like God and the Lamb have the same roles here….. temple and light

    Now… do you think WE, humans, the disciples of the Jesus are still the light? Hehehe….. you must be kidding… of course not. Only God and the Lamb are the light, so your point in saying that just as Jesus is the light, so are we, is CLEARLY rebutted. Only God and the Lamb are the light, no humans, not me, not you can become the light in that sense.

    #818060
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    You said:

    If 5+3=8, then know that 5 and 3 are not 8 themselves. If a football team is equal to another, then by reason of that, it is not the same team, but two different teams.

    ===============

    Trinitarians are not just saying that Jesus is the Father. Modalists do say that.

    We say that Jesus is the Father and is NOT the Father.

    You say that Jesus is NOT the Father period.

    Based on the Scripture, if we take everything, we learn that Jesus is and is not the Father. So, your position and that of Modalists are, once again, only half correct.

    I actually really want to see you, Unitarians and Modalists, have a debate on the nature of Jesus… must be good to watch, LOL! People who only take parts of the Scipture and consider it the whole truth!

    And don’t ask me this: What are you trying to do with our Jesus? Devoid him of his unique identity? Why create him as one part of the three part God made into an image crafted from a theological mind?

    Jesus explicitly said this:

    John 5:23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father….. (NIV)

    You seem like to want to honor the Son, Jesus, lower than you honor the Father, do you?

    You are violating Jesus words here….

     

    #818072
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Can you figure out who this YHWH is?

    Did I ever say that He is the Trinity?

    Remember Jesus said no one has seen the Father

    Oh good, so you don’t believe that the 3 men were the Trinity. Moving on then. You say that one of them was YHWH himself, the Almighty God so to speak.

    Then you say that no one can see the Father and I agree with you on that.

    John 6:46 (English-NIV)
    No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    John 1:18 (English-KJV)
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 5:37 (English-NIV)
    And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.
    You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

    Okay, all good so far. But scripture doesn’t just say that the Father is invisible,  but that God himself is invisible. Take a look at these verses:

    1 John 4:12 (English-NIV)
    No one has ever seen God; ….

    1 Timothy 1:17 (English-NIV)
    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
    Amen.

    1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

    You and I both know that Jesus is not invisible. He was visible on Earth and in Heaven he has hair like wool, eyes of fire, and legs that glow like molten metal. Jesus is very much a visible being, thus he cannot be the invisible God right? And notice that the invisible God is also THE ONLY GOD as highlighted (bold)  above. This totally fits with Jesus own words on eternal life:

    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Can you not see that Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. He is neither invisible and the original, rather visible and the image.

    So what about these verses in the Old Testament where people are said to have seen YHWH? Well that is easy to answer. We know that the New Testament is a greater revelation than the old. The men that saw God or spoke with him face to face saw, an angel or the Angel of the Lord which many ascribe as being Jesus before he came in the flesh. In other words, they saw a messenger of God and maybe even the image of the invisible God. They saw a being that is visible and most like God who represents God and is the fullness of that God. They saw the one that shows us what God is like. The only one who has seen God and the only one who can declare him.

    Take Moses for example. He is said to have conversed with God face to face. We read in Deut. 34:10 for example this: Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face . . . Yet we also know that it was the Angel of the Lord that he was conversing with.  You only need to read the context to see that.

    There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up (Exodus 3: 2).

    Then he spoke: “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God” (Exodus 3:6).

    To explain what is going on here, Revelation 1:1 provides the perfect explanation.

    The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 

    When the invisible God appears to people, he does so through his angels (messengers) and his son who are visible beings. God is eternal, thus no finite body can contain him. He is beyond our understanding, a spirit and eternal. How can you see a being that is infinite? When he talks and appears to us, his greatest glory and representation of him is the face of Jesus Christ followed by angels etc. In fact, the glory of one of these angels was so great that a prophet worshipped the angel. But if you saw Christ, then all the more so. But whatever you may say about God, you cannot deny that God is invisible and that no man has ever seen him. You can only say this if you disregard scripture. What men saw was the closest thing to seeing the invisible God, that is Jesus Christ, the Angel of the LORD, etc. If you understand this, then you do not need to force Jesus to become the only God who we know is invisible. Rather, he is the son of that God, the image of that God, the exact representation of that God.

    You asked me is I can figure out who YHWH is. Well if he is the only God and the invisible God, then it is the Father. IF you think Jesus is YHWH, then he must be the only God and invisible. He clearly is neither of those.

    #818078
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    Great! Finally you are willing to address this, instead of just ignoring this. I appreciate your willingness to do this.

    I see that your reasoning is very close to the truth, but I think you are still missing a few points simply because you are tied to your theology.

    When faced with such opposing/contradictory information from the Scripture:

    1. God is visible, seen by men (OT)

    Please don’t sayyou say that one of them was YHWH himself” because it is not me saying, but the Scripture EXPLICITLY saying that:

    Genesis 18:1  Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.

    It does not say “the messenger of the Lord” or “the Angel of the LORD”, but “THE LORD”.

    Also here:

    Exodus 24:10  and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11  But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.

    Isaiah 6:1   In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.

    Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

    The above verses also do not say “Angel of the Lord” or “messenger of the Lord” but THE LORD, sitting on His Throne! with the seraphims.

     

    2. God is invisible, no man has seen Him

    We have 1 of 3 possible positions to take:

    1. Believe that A is right, and so B is somewhat wrong
    2. Believe that B is right, and so A is somewhat wrong
    3. Believe that A and B is right, just an explanation is needed

    You seem to take the position of 2, by reading the NT idea into OT and thus declaring that OT is somewhat inaccurate. The OT verses clearly says GOD of Israel, and YHWH by name, but you are trying to impose the B position onto A. Your position is confirmed by your statement that NT is a greater revelation than NT. Who says so? There will no NT without the OT. The OT is the law that laid the foundation for the NT. The atonement for sin is laid down in the OT and fulfilled in the NT. So, you basically saying that the OT is not valid, and by invalidating the OT, you are invalidating the entire Scripture. And this is not right.

    My position is simple, i.e. the 3rd position. Both revelations are right. Only an explanation is needed, and this explanation is given by Jesus.

    When John wrote:

    John 1:18 (English-KJV)
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Jesus provides the explanation:

    John 6:46 (English-NIV)
    No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

    Actually John already explains that as well:

    John 1:18 (ESV) No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

    Here, you can rightly apply your “method”, By replacing God with the Father:

    No man hath seen the Father (God) at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    So, why dont’ you? :-)) It is in alignment with what Jesus Himself said: No one has seen the Father.

    Therefore, I totally agree with your statement:

    ================

    What men saw was the closest thing to seeing the invisible God, that is Jesus Christ,

    ================

    So, from your statement above, we can conclude that the YHWH who visited Abraham, and seen by Moses and Isaiah was clearly the Son, who become incarnate and named Jesus Christ. Right? He was called YHWH, the Elohim of Israel. I believe this is what you wanted to say right? Because the Father is invisible, and nobody has seen Him except Jesus, then the Elohim of Israel, YHWH, that these OT people saw was clearly not the Father, but the Son, who was visible, and yet, He was called YHWH.

    That is why He said in Isaiah 48:12

    12  “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.

    And He repeated that in Revelation, several times.

     

    Then you said:

    ==========

    If you understand this, then you do not need to force Jesus to become the only God who we know is invisible. Rather, he is the son of that God, the image of that God, the exact representation of that God.

    =============

    I am NOT forcing Jesus to become the “only” God. The Modalists do. They BELIEVE that Jesus is the only God, who was the Father, who is then became the Holy Spirit. For me, it is clear that the Father is invisible, His name is YHWH, Jesus is His Image, visible (when He wants to be visible), who is the Elohim of Israel, and His name is also YHWH, but having a distinct personality to the Father.

    So, clearly, Jesus is God, but is distinct from the Father who is invisible.

    So perhaps my question to you again is this: Is the Son of God not God? Is the Image of God not God? If not God, then what is He? A being less than God? Not equal to God? (this is clearly rebutted by the Scripture, because Paul says that Jesus is equal to God). So, you are placing the Son below God and above the angel? Is that so?

    In doing so, you have to remember that the Son is also YHWH, and so dare you call YHWH to be inferior to the Father?

    And in doing so, remember this also; you quoted this verse:

    1 Timothy 6:15-16 (English-NIV)
    15 which God will bring about in his own time, God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords,

    So, God is the King of Kings and Lord of lords. Guess what, the Lamb/the Son/Jesus also has that attribute:

    Revelation 17:14  “These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.”

    Revelation 19:13, 16 – 13  He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God…………….16  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    So, please do not just stick to verses that seem to show the Son’s inferiority to the Father and ignoring the verses that show the Son’s equality with the Father, because it was the Son’s mission on earth to become “slave/bondservant”, emptying Himself, to become inferior to the Father, and even inferior to angels!! but look also to His Status before His coming to earth (OT), sitting on the throne with seraphims around Him, and AFTER His return to His glory in heaven (Revelation) where the Son shares the same attributes and name with the God the Father: the First and the Last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Temple of Heaven, the Light in Heaven, the King of kings, the Lord of lords, sitting on one same throne with the Father.

     

    #818097
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Togel, the LORD manifests himself through his people. He appears to us when he sends a messenger or the son. The eternal invisible God doesn’t literally walk around and shake people’s hand and drink a glass of water with them. No, he lives inside people that do things like that. In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD. Did you know that Jesus is the image of the invisible God? That means if you want to see God and know what he is like, then look to Jesus his son. He is the closest resemblance of God. Some important differences though, he is not the eternal spirit but a visible being who has a body. He is not the original God, he is the image of that God. He is our prime person when wanting to know about God.

    Many Trinitarians mix the Old Testament which had a lesser revelation regarding God with the New Testament where we are taught the mystery of God which is Jesus Christ his son and how we can be in him. You can’t have an invisible God whom no one has seen and that be the same supposed God who is very visible on Earth as in Heaven. What you are suppose to learn is that the revelation gets greater. For example, did Job know that Satan was behind his suffering? He referred to the LORD (who we know allowed this, but didn’t inflict it). Even others had limited revelation and said:

    While he was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the heavens and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

    Surely with the revelation found in the New Testament, we know that God is the Most High and he has a son which was a mystery and his adversary the Devil is often used to judge or test people. But if we revert to the Old Testament and ignore the greater revelation, then we just see the LORD who does all these things and yet he did it all which is true, but we know better what is going on.

    When people saw the God that cannot be seen, they saw the Angel of the LORD which is perhaps the preincarnate Jesus. They saw an angel of the LORD which could be Michael, Gabriel, or other heavenly messenger. If you see a being that looks like and sound like the LORD, then you are seeing a messenger. And yet you are in a sense seeing the LORD, but through an agent. This is how it was in the Old Testament and also in the New Testament. We can see God because seeing is perceiving. As it is written about some, they have eyes but do not see.

    If you want to believe anything about the son, then believe this true message:

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    #818098
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    In short, the eternal invisible spirit who is God is seen through creation, angels, and primarily through his son.

    For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

    See how we can actually see the invisible God through creation all the while know that God is not creation itself, but is of him. Likewise God is a spirit and angels are spirits, but they are of him. And again, the son too is of him. This is why he is called the Son OF God.

    We live in an age of great revelation and God expects us to comprehend it. He doesn’t reveal things so that we can remain ignorant, but to enlighten us.

    #818100
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    You seem to take the position of 2

    I would say 3, and the explanation is in the two posts above this one.

    #818232
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    You said:

    In the Old Testament, people saw YHWH when they saw the angel of the LORD.

    ==========

    Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

    Isaiah 6:1

    1  In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord (YHWH) sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
    2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
    3 And one cried to another and said: “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!”

    So, Isaiah clearly did not see an angel of the Lord. I agree that there is a special Angel of the Lord, which is very likely Christ before His incarnation, but these verses are not talking about this Angel of the Lord but the Lord Himself, sitting on the throne with the seraphim.

    You are trying to reduce these verses into somewhat “erroneous” because it is a lesser revelation than the New Testament. I disagree, I prefer taking these verses as they are.

    However, I see that you understand that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah clearly see Jesus before His incarnation, because the Father is invisible, and the only God, i.e. the Son of God declared the Father.

    Isaiah clearly saw Jesus on the throne of God. He knew this Lord to be YHWH, the Elohim of Israel. So, I too believe that Jesus was the Elohim of Israel, YHWH.

    What about the Father? The Father is also YHWH, but since He is invisible, nobody has seen Him, and can never see Him.

    If Moses, Abraham, and Isaiah believe that the Lord they saw was YHWH or the Elohim of Israel, which now we know to be God, how could God not correct them if they were wrong?

    Please also look at “Holy, Holy, Holy”… why 3 times? Not 2 times? Not 4 times? 2 times in the entire Bible we see the angels saying “Holy, Holy, Holy” (3 times) to our God. Once is in the New Testament (Rev 4:8).

    Also, let’s see it from the perspective of the NT, I guess you already are aware of this as well:

    Jesus said 3 times that whoever sees Him (Jesus), saw the Father, the One who sent Him:

    John 14:7,9

    7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.
    8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
    9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    Joh 12:45 “And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

    So, let’s see it from the perspective of the Father. Do you think the Father agrees with Jesus’ words above? I believe He does. So, the Father could very well have said “If you want to see Me, see Jesus, my Son. If you see Him, you see Me”.

    Or, we can put it this way: The Father could have said “If you want to see God (Me), look at Jesus”.

    This way, we can see that Jesus is God. Otherwise, the Father could not have said that, and Jesus could not have said the above.

    Believing that Jesus is less than God is a blasphemy, because we will be considering the visible image of the invisible God to be not God, whereas the Son Himself says that if you want to see the Father (who is undoubtedly God), look at me, a statement with which, I believe, the Father agrees.

    Imagine this: The Father says “You want to see Me (God), look at Jesus (less than God)”. Then the Father is lying, but He does not lie. So, Jesus must be God. Not the Father, but God.

     

    #818233
    Profile photo of Frank O'Donnell Frank O’Donnell 
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    John 1:18 (NAS) No one has seen God at any time; the only BEGOTTEN god* who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (Caps mine for emphasis)

    * There was no such thing as “capital letters” when the Bible was written.

     

    Spirit creatures, angels, are able to behold the brilliance of Jehovah (Mt 18:10; Lu 1:19), an experience that no human eyes could endure, for Jehovah/Yahweh himself told Moses: “No man may see me and yet live.”

    #818237
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Sorry Brother, I think your statement above does not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

    Let’s test your words Togel using scripture. First I want to point out what you really said by implication.

    Sorry John and Paul, I think your statements do not represent what is written in Genesis 18, Exodus 24, and Isaiah. It is clearly written there that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw GOD (YHWH or YHVH, the Elohim of Israel). These verses are clear enough.

    Clearly you do not agree with John and Paul, and remember that I do not believe that no man can see God because of personal understanding, but because our brothers Paul and John wrote this clearly in scripture and they even gave us explanation as to who people saw when men said they saw God. Further, both John and Paul read the same books in the Old Testament that we do, so let’s again revisit their understanding of this. We also know that those who were with Jesus or around his time had a greater revelation than those in Old Testament times, so their view of what happened should be greater or contain more revelation. So let’s again mention what you actually disagree with and by extension of that, which writers you disagree with:

    You disagree with John who said:

    • No one has ever seen God;
    • No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him;
    • And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form.

    You also disagree with Paul as he clearly states that the ONLY God is invisible and scripture says that Jesus is a visible being.

    • Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen;
    • The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    So if these two biblical writers state clearly that God is invisible and Jesus the son of God is visible, then by whom did men see when they saw YHWH? Clearly they saw the or a visible image of the invisible God. They saw the glory of God. Like the wind which you cannot see, God is invisible, but you see the wind by looking at its effect and we can see God by seeing his glory in that which is begotten of him and that which is created by him. If mere creation demonstrates to us what God is like and we are without excuse, then his angels all the more so. But the greatest revelation of God is his son Jesus Christ. If you want to see God, then look into the face of Christ.

    2 Corinthians 4:6
    For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.

    How does anyone see an invisible God who is actually an eternal Spirit? Well let’s take the best known case which is Moses. I say Moses because he is considered the greatest prophet for his time and before that and he also saw the LORD face to face. So he is the best example to start with. Let’s see how he was able to see the invisible eternal God. In Deuteronomy 34:10 says:
    Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

    However, when you read exactly how Moses saw this invisible God you see that he first encountered an actual angel who was the representation and messenger of the invisible God.

    Exodus 3:2
    There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

    The writer of Acts 7:30 even agrees when he says:
    “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.

    Later we read in Exodus 33:21-23 that Moses was not actually allowed to see YHWH’s face.
    And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back… 

    So the greatest of all prophets to date, was not allowed to see his face or form, instead while his GLORY passed by he was able to catch a glimpse of something as God’s presence passed by. This is what it means to see God and the greatest prophet to date had this encounter which is described as him communing with him face to face. Now return to the writers of the New Testament who declare that no one can see God. Guess what, they are correct. Seeing God is not as you think, an encounter with a finite being who you can see and talk to like a human or an angel. No, it is an encounter with an eternal invisible spirit who is light and where his presence is his glory resides. We can’t see him directly or his form, but we can see his glory and that glory can emanate from his son, or another messenger that he may send.

    Can Moses say he saw God? Yes he did see him, but not all sight is direct as you think. There is hindsight, foresight, and other ways to perceive things. Often I may say that I can see your point, but does that mean I actually saw a point in the sky, or that I perceive and understood to some degree what you are said. It is the latter. When people see God it is not that they see a finite being in a body and can see his mouth moving as he speaks, but that they see the glory of the eternal God of whom the Universe cannot contain.

    Remember, if you disagree that no one can see God, then you disagree with at least two writers of the New Testament, and guess what? You also disagree with Moses too as his account in Exodus 33:20 says: But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

    Do you still believe that some men can literally see God like you see a man or a tree? Then you disagree with some verses in the Bible. While I agree with them all, you clearly do not Togel. What are you going to do about these discrepancies in your theology?

    #818243
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    I do not disagree with the Scripture or their writers, but I disagree with YOUR INTERPRETATION of their writings.

    When John writes that no one has seen God, John meant to say that none has seen the Father. Jesus explains this Himself:

    John 6:46 “Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

    So, I clearly believes more in Jesus’ interpretation of John’s writing that no one has ever seen God, than your interpretation.

    But there is ONE GOD that people has seen, in the past and even in Jesus, time, that is the Son, the only God who declared the Father.

    Whom do you think was talking to Moses, and whose back do you think Moses see? The Father’s?

    And the Lord said, “Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back…

    Of course not the Father’s back. He is invisible. Even Moses could not see Him. If the Father’s back is visible, then He is not invisible. So, this is clearly God the Son whom Moses saw. He is the Elohim of Israel, whether or not you acknowledge.

    That’s why the writer of Hebrew writes that it was the Son who created the heaven and earth, because God the Son is the God of Israel. He is the God that Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah saw.

    In His full Glory, nobody could see His Face and live. I guess He had to sort of “reduce” His glory in order that people could see Him and live. In other words, God could allow some people to see Him and live. However, this God is not the invisible Father, because no matter what the Father will never be seen. However, God the Son could make Himself visible, and even becomes incarnate.

    This same God, the Son, also calls Himself, the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, to Isaiah and to John. The Almighty also uses these names, but for you, these two names have different meanings when used by the Almighty and by Jesus. How come? Clearly you read your interpretation ONTO the Scripture instead of letting the Scripture speaks for itself.

    Clearly, you are placing your logic above the Scripture.

    And once again, remember that Jesus says Himself: You see me, you see the Father (meaning: You see me, you see God, because the Father is God). And you dare to reinterpret that into something else. I am sorry Brother, I guess you disagree with Jesus in order to maintain your theology based on your wrong interpretation of Paul’s and John’s writing.

    Now, when you quote this, and wants to use “the only God” to refer only to the Father, you need to see the other translations as well:

    (ESV) 1Ti 1:17 To the King of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

    (NKJV) 1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

    (AV) 1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    So, clearly “the only God” can mean “God who alone is”.

    It’s like the Shema Yisrael,  where “echad” means not the absolute oneness of God, but that there is only one true God, i.e. YHWH, the Elohim of Israel.

     

    #818244
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    When John writes that no one has seen God, John meant to say that none has seen the Father. Jesus explains this Himself:

    Well yes, the Father is God. That is what I have been saying all a long.

    And he is the only God.

    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.

    No man has seen God, but they have seen the son of God.

    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

    Yet you believe that God is a Trinity, so if no man can see God, then no man can see the Trinity. You yourself admitted it is the Father. You have made progress.

     

     

    #818249
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
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    T8,

    You are totally missing the point!

    Jesus knew exactly that the God of Israel had been seen by people; He had visited Abraham in human form, He had been seen by Moses (Moses saw God’s back) and Israeli elders, and seen by Isaiah on His throne with the seraphim and cherubim around. Therefore, when John wrote “no one has seen God”, Jesus explained that it is not “God” in the meaning that you are assuming, but simply “the Father”. Otherwise, John’s statement would totally contradict the established and accepted Scripture, the Old Testament, which is as important as the New Testament. Jesus knew that the God of Israel had been seen by Abraham, Moses, and Isaiah, because it was He, Jesus, the Son Himself, who visited Abraham, and it was also Him whom Moses, and Israeli elders, and Isaiah saw! And I know that you don’t deny this, because the Father is invisible, and so only the Son can declare Him, and the Son had declared the Father to these people.

    And these people knew very well that YHWH that they saw was the Elohim (God, theos, if you like) of Israel, and they were not wrong, otherwise they would have been corrected, and this proves that Jesus, the Son, is also an El (God), part of the Elohim (God in plural form) of Israel.

    That’s why, Jesus said in John 8:24  “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

    Who do you think Jesus is claiming to be in the verse above? “I am He” or simply “I Am”, the name of God in the Old Testament, because that’s who He is! That is the title or name that YHWH assumes many times in the OT. And read it carefully because Jesus said that if you do not believe that Jesus is “I Am”, you will die in your sins. That’s Jesus saying, not me, so don’t you say that I am putting words in Jesus’ mouth. I am not. It is written as it is.

    Now, if you quote 1 Corinthian 8:5-6 to prove that the person of God is only one, i.e. the Father, I am afraid you are wrong:

    5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords),
    6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

    Read verse 5,  and you see that Paul is differentiating the one God, the Father, not from the Son, but from the other gods, and lords the many other nations. The false gods. Paul is not denying Trinity here, but simply enforces the true identity of the true God. In fact, Paul is confirming the very imporant role of the Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all are all things. If Jesus is created, this is simply impossible.

    And if you believe that the latter revelation is greater, you should be very careful, because you are very close to becoming the follower of Joseph Smith (or are you already?) or Muhammad, both of who believe that their latter revelation is GREATER and more correct than the earlier revelation: the OT and the NT. This assumption simply does not work, and is simply your creation in order to justify your theology.

    The plurality of the persons of God is already revealed many times in the Old Testament. They are there if you just would read.

    #818250
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
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    Togel, you know it takes much more effort to refute a statement than make one. For this reason, I may not answer every single point you make. But if there is a point I miss and you prefer me to cover that, please let me know.

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