Revelation 1:8

This topic contains 341 replies, has 18 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 2 weeks, 6 days ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #817941
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 104

    T8,

    So, from those Revelation verses that I quoted, you should already be able to see that The Father says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, The Beginning and the End, and then in latter verses Jesus also uses this title for Himself.

    So, how can you apply diffrent meanings to those names when used by the Father and when used by Jesus? Is that what you call double-standard, and it simply does not work, because then you are losing the point of reference?

    Here’s what you said:

    ===============

    Revelation 1:8
    “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

    The scripture says it was the “Lord God” according to most translations, so it is clearly referring to the Father. But some argue that it is talking about Jesus because the context or verses before this one are in deed talking about Jesus. So let’s dig deeper and see if this means that revelation 1:8 is also talking about Jesus.

    ==============

    Revelation 1:10-13

    10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
    11 saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
    12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
    13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

    So, here, in verse 11, clearly the voice that says “I am the Alpha and the Omega…..” comes from One like the Son of Man, who is clearly Jesus, not the Father, because the Father is not like the Son of Man (where in the Scripture does it say that the Father is like the Son of Man?)

    So, in verse 8 you said that the Father is talking, and He is referring to Himself as the A&O and here Jesus is talking and referring to Himself as the A&O. So clearly, the Father and Jesus are distinct but both area A&O meaning, both are God, two persons, one God.

     

    #817942
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    Did you not read my post? Replacing *ALL* God with the Father also does NOT work!

    The instances where it doesn’t work is where the Most High is not being referred to. This is the point. My point is not that ‘theos’ always refers to the Father, but that “theos” in context of the Most High is always the Father.

    For example:

    Jesus said: “ye are gods”.

    He most certainly wasn’t referring to the Most High here.

    The god of this world” is also not referring to the Most High is it?

    Both these examples use the same word, ‘theos’.

    Please show me one verse that is talking about the one true God/Most High and identifies another person other than the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ?

    #817943
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    So, from those Revelation verses that I quoted, you should already be able to see that The Father says that He is the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, The Beginning and the End, and then in latter verses Jesus also uses this title for Himself.

    Please pay attention so we don’t have to repeat ourselves. I will do it though for the sake of convenience.

    It is a Jewish idiom and is framed within the context like anything else is. God is by default the first and last. Jesus is the first and last in many things that God is not. For example, Jesus is the firstborn which is the context of the verse. We are told that he has first place in all things by Paul, and that he is also the final Adam. He is the author and finisher of our faith too.

    looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 

    Notice how Jesus is the first and last as far as our faith goes, and then notice that he sat down at the right-hand of God who is another.

    So, how can you apply diffrent meanings to those names when used by the Father and when used by Jesus? Is that what you call double-standard, and it simply does not work, because then you are losing the point of reference?

    Easy. It is quite common. Here is an example that comes to mind straight away.

    God

    This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

    Jesus

    When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

    So Jesus is the light right? So that makes him God because God is light right?

    Wrong!

    Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

    Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Can you now see how you can you apply different meanings to those names when used by one and then another?

    I could go on. God is spirit. Angels are spirit. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, we are made in the image of God. God has divine nature and we can share in divine nature.

    The simple truth here is that attributes of God can describe others who are like God and we are called to be like God right?

    #817944
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    So, here, in verse 11, clearly the voice that says “I am the Alpha and the Omega…..” comes from One like the Son of Man, who is clearly Jesus, not the Father, because the Father is not like the Son of Man (where in the Scripture does it say that the Father is like the Son of Man?)

    I have already said that the first part is referring to the LORD God and further on it is referring to Jesus Christ. That doesn’t equate Jesus as God just as being the light of the world does not make us God or Jesus, even though God and Jesus claim to be light.

    You will find that many attributes and characteristics, even some sayings or idioms that describe God are also present in Jesus and ALSO all who follow God. Simple explanation is that we should be like God and have his character and nature. Trinitarians like to confuse people here by taking only instances of God and Jesus and conveniently not mentioning the children of God as having the same attributes.

    For example, a favorite argument made for the Trinity is that Jesus said that he and the Father were one. Well guess what? You hardly ever hear them also mention in the same breath that Jesus prayed that we should also be one and one with him and one with God. If being one with God makes you God, then I guess you cannot be one with God or that would be blasphemy.

    Of course we can be one with him and still not be God at the same time. Likewise Jesus. He is the son of this God we are talking about and we are the sons of God. Well I do not speak for you as that is up to you, but for those that are of God is what I am talking about.

    #817945
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 104

    T8,

    You are asking for verses where God refers Not to the Father but the Most High? I have already shoved you the verses many times: Genesis 18, Exodus 24, Isaiah 6.  (I know these are not “theos” but essentially the same, just different language).

    Need more?

    John 1:1 also does not work: and the Word was God.

    Also the Hebrew verse, Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    Clearly these verses are talking about the Son and He is referred to as Theos!

    We know that Jesus came into the world not to show Himself as God, but as the Lamb, the Messiah, that’s why He did not show the entire truth about Himself, and we find only few verses about His true identity… but from the many verses in the Scripture we learn that Jesus claims equality with the Father many times, and that should be enough. Except for heretics of course…. who follow their own mind instead of the entire Scripture.

    Example:

    Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

    Jesus says that He will send the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Father in your terminology:

    Joh 16:14 “He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.
    Joh 16:15 “All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

    If Jesus is inferior to the Father, how can He have authority to make His Father’s Spirit His own messenger?

    #817946
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 104

    T8,

    Your explanation may contain some truth, but in these Revelation verses, you are clearly putting words into Jesus mouth!!

    Lord God says I am the Alpha and the Omega, and Jesus says I am the Alpha and the Omega.

    But you give different meanings to that exactly the same name! Why? Because you have your own theology binding you! Anyone who reads it with a sincere mind and open and honest mind would have to admit that Jesus is claiming to be God, because HE IS SAYING THAT BEFORE THE FATHER!! If Jesus is not God, then The Father would not have allowed Jesus to use that name! Just think about the situation and don’t try to impose definitions from afar off into this context.

    Yes, Jesus is the first and the last in many things, but here Jesus is not talking about any roles at all; He is SIMPLY STATING HIS NAME! Not just attributes.

    #817947
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 104

    T8,

    The evidence for Trinitarians are ample; that Jesus is claiming equality with God is also evident in the Bible. You are just trying to ignore them and explain away those statements. Jesus says that He and the Father are one is not the only evidence. Jesus will come as the Judge at the end time, while we know from the Old Testament that God is the Judge over the entire world.

    He also claimed omnipresence:

    Matthew 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

    Isaiah 35:3 is a promise that the God of Israel will come to save His people:

    3 Strengthen the weak hands, And make firm the feeble knees.
    4 Say to those who are fearful-hearted, “Be strong, do not fear! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, With the recompense of God; He will come and save you.”
    5  Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, And the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
    6 Then the lame shall leap like a deer, And the tongue of the dumb sing. For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, And streams in the desert.
    7 The parched ground shall become a pool, And the thirsty land springs of water; In the habitation of jackals, where each lay, There shall be grass with reeds and rushes.

    And when the disciple of John the Baptist came to Jesus to confirm who He is, Jesus uses the above prophecy:

    Matthew 11:2-6

    2 And when John had heard in prison about the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples
    3 and said to Him, “Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?”
    4 Jesus answered and said to them, “Go and tell John the things which you hear and see:
    5 “The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
    6 “And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me.”

    So, Jesus is basically saying that He is the God of Israel who was coming to save His people as promised to Isaiah.

    Very straightforward if you would just open your heart.

    And there are many others.

    #817948
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    You are asking for verses where God refers Not to the Father but the Most High? I have already shoved you the verses many times: Genesis 18, Exodus 24, Isaiah 6.  (I know these are not “theos” but essentially the same, just different language).

    You are kidding me. Are you saying that the three men are the Trinity?

    #817949
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    John 1:1 also does not work: and the Word was God.

    This takes to long to explain to a Trinitarian, so I will just point you to a page that I wrote on this very subject. I know it is long, but it kind of needs to be because of the questions that get asked. Hopefully it answers any questions that spring to mind. Regardless, it is up to you to test it and see for yourself.

    John 1:1

    #817950
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    Also the Hebrew verse, Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    Don’t you mean Heb 1:8?

    #817952
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    Clearly these verses are talking about the Son and He is referred to as Theos!

    Yes there are verses that talk about Jesus with the word ‘theos’ or equivalent, just as it is also used to refer to  angels, judges of Israel, and Moses.

    Further, even idols and Satan are called ‘theos’.

    Again, the question was in relation to the Most High God as referring to any other than the Father. Of course you and I can quote a myriad of verses with ‘theos’ that refer to another besides the Most High.

    #817953
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    We know that Jesus came into the world not to show Himself as God, but as the Lamb, the Messiah, that’s why He did not show the entire truth about Himself, and we find only few verses about His true identity… but from the many verses in the Scripture we learn that Jesus claims equality with the Father many times, and that should be enough. Except for heretics of course…. who follow their own mind instead of the entire Scripture.

    Do not be confused with being like God with being as great as God or being God.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

    Obviously he is like God to such a degree that he is the visible image of the invisible God.

    We are images too, but as you know, an image is not the source and we reflect only in part.

    “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

    This is how Jesus said it. I think Jesus ends this argument. Unless you want to argue with him. But you are free to do that if you want.

    The Father is greater than the Son. Full stop.

    Further, if you were even equal to something, it simply means that you are also not that thing.

    If 5+3=8, then know that 5 and 3 are not 8 themselves. If a football team is equal to another, then by reason of that, it is not the same team, but two different teams.

    Women and men may be equal, but females are not males. Equal or equality is a word that is not used to make two things the same thing, rather similar. I have already said that Jesus is the most like God. We cannot see God, but we can see or perceive God by looking into the face of Christ.

    #817954
    Profile photo of t8 t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 834
    • Total replies 17224

    So, Jesus is basically saying that He is the God of Israel who was coming to save His people as promised to Isaiah.

    I will let Paul teach you.

    “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

    God saved us by sending his son. This is part of the gospel. And when you dig deeper into scripture, Jesus even asked God if this cup could be removed if it were possible, but not his will but God’s will. This shows that it was God’s will to save us. It was God’s plan. Jesus did God’s will and not his own.

    What are you trying to do with our Jesus? Devoid him of his unique identity? Why create him as one part of the three part God made into an image crafted from a theological mind?

    #818054
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 104

    T8,

    You said: You are kidding me. Are you saying that the three men are the Trinity?

    =====

    You better read the verses yourself:

    Genesis 18:

    1  Then the LORD (YHWH) appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
    2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,

    verse 22: Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD.

    verse 33: 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
    Genesis 19: 1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground.

    So, the 2 are angels, who went to Sodom after meeting with Abraham, while the LORD (YHWH) stayed with Abraham, and after finished talking, He went to Sodom as well, but was not told again in the Scripture.

    Can you figure out who this YHWH is?

    Did I ever say that He is the Trinity?

    Remember Jesus said no one has seen the Father.

     

     

     

    #818055
    Profile photo of Togel Togel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 104

    T8,

    No, I meant Hebrew 1:9 Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

    Try replacing both Gods with Father, and you get a failure.

    Verse 10 also EXPLICITLY states that the Father says to the Son that the Son laid the foundation of the earth, and that the heavens are the work of the Son’s hands.

    This is not me saying, but the Scripture:

    8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
    9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
    10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

    You cannot twist these verses into your doctrine, I am afraid…..

Viewing 15 posts - 301 through 315 (of 342 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2017 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account