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PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”Hi,
I guess the rapture will not precede the first resurrection. Such an event when some were raised at the death of Christ did not pass unnoticed so it is likely to be seen by all too. The Left Behind books suggested a huge number of people simply disappeared but I suspect there will be relatively few and, as God is in charge, there will not be much disruption to everyday life. Certainly the other bridesmaids were aware they had missed their opportunity. But there were only 10 bridesmaids , 5 taken, 5 left, compared with the large numbers of people usually seen at a wedding.Pre-tribulation rapture OR post-tribulation?
Mat 24:29 But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Pre-trib. believers are confused with the wrath of God. We will be saved from the wrath of God but not the tribulation of Satan.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.
1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,Saints go through the tribulation.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Rev 13:10 If any man is for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 16:6 for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy.
Rev 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also “and their brethren, who should be killed” even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
Someone PLEASE prove to me that the saints will not go through the tribulation. “Here is the patience of the saints”.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 17 2006,14:54) Pre-tribulation rapture OR post-tribulation? Mat 24:29 But immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.Pre-trib. believers are confused with the wrath of God. We will be saved from the wrath of God but not the tribulation of Satan.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him.
1Th 1:10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, who delivereth us from the wrath to come.
1Th 5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,Saints go through the tribulation.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and there was given to him authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.
Rev 13:10 If any man is for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints, they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 16:6 for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy.
Rev 6:11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also “and their brethren, who should be killed” even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.
Someone PLEASE prove to me that the saints will not go through the tribulation. “Here is the patience of the saints”.
kenrch,Whether the tribulation has passed or not (some believe that it has) one things is certain, His parousia will not come until the end. Our gathering together unto Him does not take place until His parousia. That day will be like a two sided coin. It will be a day of deliverance for His people and a day of destruction for the wicked (2 Thess. 1:3-10). It will not be secret as He will be glorified in His saints in that day. It will be at the last trump (1 Cor. 15:52). The same flood that brought deliverance to Noah and his family, brought destruction to the wicked. The same exact day that Lot left Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Ty,
So you agree that the rapture will not take place until “after” the tribulation? At the last trump the dead will rise? I thought you go to heaven when you die. Or is it just the bodies that rise at the last trump? Rev. 6:9-11If the dead don't rise until the last trump, then how were those raised in Matt when our Lord died? God is no respecter of persons.
Let me weigh in here…..
The Bible clearly teaches that Christ's return will catch people unawares. In other words it will be a surprise event. How is Christ's return going to be a surprise event when we are in tribulation for seven years? I mean just start counting down for 7 years to his return from then!
Kenrch you wrote:
Ty,
“So you agree that the rapture will not take place until “after” the tribulation? At the last trump the dead will rise? I thought you go to heaven when you die. Or is it just the bodies that rise at the last trump? Rev. 6:9-11If the dead don't rise until the last trump, then how were those raised in Matt when our Lord died? God is no respecter of persons. “
Remember Paul blasted Hymeneus and Philetus who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, because they were saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:18)
However, Jesus as well as Elijah and Elisha did resurrect several individuals. Elisha's bones even resurrected a dead man who was hurriedly thrown into his grave! However after the earthquake in Matthew 27:51-53, it appears that MANY of the saints experienced a resurrection like
Lazarus. However, these people DIED again later. They went into the Holy City, (Jerusalem), not Heaven and appeared to many but all of them eventually died again. Nothing in the scriptures indicates they were raised in incorruptable bodies which would never die again. Thus this could not be THE final resurrection.Now the question is, are all still waiting in death as the scriptures suggest in 1Thessalonians 4:16, so that the “Dead in Christ will rise first”? I think this is just the case. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up with them. So this is telling me all the saints are still sleeping in death awaiting Christ's return when THE great resurrection of all will occur.
Paul spoke of the mystery that all will not fall asleep in death but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. { 1 Corn 15:51-53 }
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but will all be changed- 52 in a flash in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET.
Last trumpet? Well the last trumpet sounds like the blast that will announce Christ's second coming. So this makes sense. I think of if Kenrch, as us falling asleep in death which is much deeper than any natural sleep. When you are sleeping you don't know if you've slept 5 minutes of 5 hours! So the next thing you know, you are waking up to a horn blast, ascending to heaven to meet the Lord Jesus in the air. It would be as if you never died, really. It will be that fast.
Notice too all these people who claim to have had near death or after life experiences never mention a scenario like the Bible describes. The Bible says “it is appointed once for man to die”, so that is GOING to happen unless we are alive still when Christ returns. Otherwise there would be no need for the “dead” in Christ to arise when he returns.
Am I making any sense?
Bless you bro's! Back to seminary studies. Now we're covering Church Administration. What a snooze-fest!
Semmy
Quote (seminarian @ Aug. 17 2006,20:26) Let me weigh in here….. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ's return will catch people unawares. In other words it will be a surprise event. How is Christ's return going to be a surprise event when we are in tribulation for seven years? I mean just start counting down for 7 years to his return from then!
Kenrch you wrote:
Ty,
“So you agree that the rapture will not take place until “after” the tribulation? At the last trump the dead will rise? I thought you go to heaven when you die. Or is it just the bodies that rise at the last trump? Rev. 6:9-11If the dead don't rise until the last trump, then how were those raised in Matt when our Lord died? God is no respecter of persons. “
Remember Paul blasted Hymeneus and Philetus who SWERVE AS TO TRUTH, because they were saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and are subverting the faith of some” (II Tim. 2:18)
However, Jesus as well as Elijah and Elisha did resurrect several individuals. Elisha's bones even resurrected a dead man who was hurriedly thrown into his grave! However after the earthquake in Matthew 27:51-53, it appears that MANY of the saints experienced a resurrection like
Lazarus. However, these people DIED again later. They went into the Holy City, (Jerusalem), not Heaven and appeared to many but all of them eventually died again. Nothing in the scriptures indicates they were raised in incorruptable bodies which would never die again. Thus this could not be THE final resurrection.Now the question is, are all still waiting in death as the scriptures suggest in 1Thessalonians 4:16, so that the “Dead in Christ will rise first”? I think this is just the case. Those who are alive and remain will be caught up with them. So this is telling me all the saints are still sleeping in death awaiting Christ's return when THE great resurrection of all will occur.
Paul spoke of the mystery that all will not fall asleep in death but be changed in the twinkling of an eye. { 1 Corn 15:51-53 }
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but will all be changed- 52 in a flash in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET.
Last trumpet? Well the last trumpet sounds like the blast that will announce Christ's second coming. So this makes sense. I think of if Kenrch, as us falling asleep in death which is much deeper than any natural sleep. When you are sleeping you don't know if you've slept 5 minutes of 5 hours! So the next thing you know, you are waking up to a horn blast, ascending to heaven to meet the Lord Jesus in the air. It would be as if you never died, really. It will be that fast.
Notice too all these people who claim to have had near death or after life experiences never mention a scenario like the Bible describes. The Bible says “it is appointed once for man to die”, so that is GOING to happen unless we are alive still when Christ returns. Otherwise there would be no need for the “dead” in Christ to arise when he returns.
Am I making any sense?
Bless you bro's! Back to seminary studies. Now we're covering Church Administration. What a snooze-fest!
Semmy
Semmy,You beat me to it. Everything that you've just posted is correct according to what the scriptures say.
I'm sure you know that the pretrib folks (I am not one of them) don't view the rapture as the “complete” second coming. Consequently they will argue, that the “unawares coming” refers to the rapture. Which, of course, holds no water either.
Semmy,
Last trumpet? Well the last trumpet sounds like the blast that will announce Christ's second coming. So this makes sense. I think of if Kenrch, as us falling asleep in death which is much deeper than any natural sleep. When you are sleeping you don't know if you've slept 5 minutes of 5 hours! So the next thing you know, you are waking up to a horn blast, ascending to heaven to meet the Lord Jesus in the air. It would be as if you never died, really. It will be that fast.
That's what I see it also. Some would argue that we go directly to heaven when we die. I say what difference does it make? The next thing we will know is heaven. As you said we won't know if it was .5 seconds or 5 billion years. AMEN!
Can't wait!Hi kenrch,
If you read the end of the last book you will see the final destiny for man is not in heaven but on earth.I'm going to get in trouble here lol. My personal thought, based on some Scripture that I've read, some things a prophetess once told me and sort of a feeling ( I've told you already I'm no theologian lol), is that those Christians who are prepared to go through the Feast of Tabernacles (death to self and consequential ressurection) will not have to face the tribulation. Sorry I can't recall the Scriptures right now and to be honest it all gets a bit too deep for me.
But there are a lot of Scriptures that seem to have a similar message to this: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
Hi Oxy,
Romans 6 shows us that die in baptism. The wheat must die to produce a crop. The sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit of God and not the flesh. They are sons of the resurrection and will be raised in the first resurrection to reign with Christ for 1000 yrs.
We are not vessels destined for wrath and the wrath of God is the second half of the tribulation.So I tend towards a mid trib rapture.
Quote (Oxy @ Aug. 18 2006,11:02) I'm going to get in trouble here lol. My personal thought, based on some Scripture that I've read, some things a prophetess once told me and sort of a feeling ( I've told you already I'm no theologian lol), is that those Christians who are prepared to go through the Feast of Tabernacles (death to self and consequential ressurection) will not have to face the tribulation. Sorry I can't recall the Scriptures right now and to be honest it all gets a bit too deep for me. But there are a lot of Scriptures that seem to have a similar message to this: Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.
Oxy,“Death to self and consequential resurrection”. Say what? Some will have to go through tribulation and others won't? The reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed to sin (consequently self) takes place at repentance and baptism according to Paul in Romans 6. Are you saying there needs to be a second death experience? You don't bury (baptize) a living man man do you?
What you're saying sounds like one of those “elite few” kind of doctrines. Like the JW 144,000 damnable heresy.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 18 2006,11:37) Hi Oxy,
Romans 6 shows us that die in baptism. The wheat must die to produce a crop. The sons of God are those who are led by the Spirit of God and not the flesh. They are sons of the resurrection and will be raised in the first resurrection to reign with Christ for 1000 yrs.
We are not vessels destined for wrath and the wrath of God is the second half of the tribulation.So I tend towards a mid trib rapture.
Hi Nick, water baptism is a picture of the Jordan crossing, which is the real death.Quote (typrsn @ Aug. 18 2006,20:39) “Death to self and consequential resurrection”. Say what? Some will have to go through tribulation and others won't? The reckoning ourselves to be dead indeed to sin (consequently self) takes place at repentance and baptism according to Paul in Romans 6. Are you saying there needs to be a second death experience? You don't bury (baptize) a living man man do you? What you're saying sounds like one of those “elite few” kind of doctrines. Like the JW 144,000 damnable heresy.
This is no form of elitism. The truth is that those who have experience Tabernacles become the servants of those who have not.It is no different than those who have received the baptism in the Holy Spirit reaching out to those who have not yet received. There is no elitism there either.
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