PROOF of Jesus' eternal past existence

This topic contains 417 replies, has 14 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 5 months, 3 weeks ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #789307
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    LU,

    I do not agree that the Son of God is the first of creation. He is the beginning of the creation of God. I do agree that He is the supreme leader of creation in heaven and earth.

    I think I see what you are trying to say but words can be tricky as first does mean leader.  I assume when you use it in your first sentence you are addressing those who insist he was born, aka created, first.  The firstborn is the heir, even when they are not literally born first. In one passage King David is called the firstborn of the earth, which is to say the heir of the earth.

    In Revelations 3:14 there is one called the beginning, originator, ruler, or source of creation depending on which choice translators made in a number of different versions.   I went with leader assuming the Koine Greek had a meaning equivalent to first.  It is actually “arché” which is more chief of creation just like a archangel is a chief messenger.  We know Jehovah appointed him as chief or all thing in heaven and on earth.

    #789308
     kerwin 
    Participant
    • Topics started 144
    • Total replies 17,364

    @t8,

    kerwin, I suppose you realise that I was not saying or implying that the son of God in the genealogies was Jesus Christ.

    It is something that struck me at the moment.  The question is, why wasn’t he called the son of God in his own genealogies?

    #789322
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,293

    @kerwin,

    Thanks for your explanation. So, are we in agreement that Rev 3:14 is NOT saying that Jesus is the first creation of God when He is called the ‘beginning of the creation of God?”

    Also, you are correct that ‘chief’ is an appropriate translation of arche’ among a few other words like: origin, beginning, ruler, etc. The use of the word ‘first’ however, is not an appropriate translation. I do think that the correct translation of arche’ is ‘beginning’ in this case because the same word is used in other places in Revelation and is translated as ‘beginning.’  For example:

    Rev 22:13

    I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

    God bless!

    I want to find out more about how Jesus is the beginning AND THE END. I am wondering if ‘Beginning’ is one of His names and ‘in the Beginning (Jesus)’ God created the heavens and the earth. hmmm.

    #789323
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,293

    @tigger

    Once again, thank you for the time it took you to make your post. And, once again, ‘first’ is not an appropriate translation of arche’. I have also never seen it translated that way in any Bible in Rev 3:14. Do you know of a Bible translation that translates arche’ as ‘first’ for Rev 3:14?

    God bless!

    #789324
     tigger 
    Participant
    • Topics started 1
    • Total replies 71

     

    @LU

    This is the third time you have ignored the following:

    This is just as I pointed out from scripture in an earlier post above (February 13, 2015 at 2:26 pm).

    It is used as a noun which governs a genitive noun

    (‘beginning of —-’) And so are the following examples:

    Matt. 24:8 δὲ ταῦτα ἀρχὴ ὠδίνων

    NASB: these things are [merely] the beginning of birth pangs.

    ἀρχὴ of… means the first of the birth pangs.

    Gen. 49:3 Ρουβην, πρωτότοκός μου σύ, … καὶ ἀρχὴ τέκνων μου – LXX

    Reuben, you are my first-born, … and the beginning of my children

    ἀρχὴ of… means the first of the children.

    Deut. 21:17 ἀλλὰ τὸν πρωτότοκον υἱὸν…. ὅτι οὗτός ἐστιν ἀρχὴ τέκνων αὐτοῦ, – LXX

    But the first-born son … because he is the beginning of his children,

    ἀρχὴ of… means the first of the children.

    Rev. 3:14 [Jesus] ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ Θεοῦ

    the beginning of God’s creation

    ἀρχὴ of… means Jesus is the very first of God’s [not his own]creation

    Please show me how the meaning of these “beginning of…” phrases is not what they clearly mean.

    As for translations using first, we are fortunate to find any Trinitarian Bible which accurately translates it as “Beginning of….” since it a scripture they do not wish to acknowledge accurately (for obvious reasons).

    However, there is this Trinitarian rendering:

    Rev-3:14  Write to Laodicea, to the Angel of the church. God’s Yes, the Faithful and Accurate Witness, the First of God’s creation” – MSG.

    And, the best Trinitarian acknowledgement of this truth is found in the most-respected Trinitarian lexicon:

    In the latest edition [BDAG, 2000], section 6 under πατήρ, which discusses God as Father, we find the following definition: “the supreme deity, who is responsible for the origin and care of all that exists, Father….” [boldface and italics belong to BDAG].

    The Father, as the name clearly implies is the ultimate source (not the Son) of all that exists (including the Son).

    The BAGD, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Walter Bauer, William F. Arndt (Translator), F. Wilbur Gingrich, and Frederick W. Danker (Editor), has been revised as the BDAG. On page 138, the interpretation of Rev 3:14 that ‘ARXH [arche] of creation’ means that Christ was created has been upgraded from poss. [possible] to prob. [probable].

    #789332
     tigger 
    Participant
    • Topics started 1
    • Total replies 71

    This may be helpful in examining the scriptures in the above post:

    Matt. 24:8 – This is normally translated “beginning of birth pangs,” but never “ruler of” or “source of”!

    But we can also find these Trinitarian renderings:

    “All these things are like the first pains of childbirth.” – GNT.

    “These things are like the first pains when something new is about to be born” – NCV.

    “But all this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come” – NLT.

    ……………………………………………

    But more important, this next scripture is even more closely parallel to Rev. 3:14:

    Gen. 49:3 LXX – Ruben, thou art my first-born, thou my strength, and the first [arche] of my children, hard to be endured, hard and self-willed. – Brenton.

     

    #789336
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,243

    Hi,

    Please note that JESUS CHRIST, the anointed man Jesus of Nazareth, ONLY BEGAN at the Jordan when he was anointed.

    Before that there was a man of Nazareth, and the WORD that was with God and was God.

     

    Jn 10.38

     

     

    #789344
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,243

    Hi,

    The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    The flesh contributes nothing.

    Know the Word

    #789349
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 889
    • Total replies 18,309

    It is something that struck me at the moment.  The question is, why wasn’t he called the son of God in his own genealogies?

    Not sure. Perhaps genealogies deal exclusively with man. Only as a man is he mentioned or alluded to as the starting point in the genealogy. Further, it doesn’t mention God either, possibly for the same reason.

    #789350
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 889
    • Total replies 18,309

    Please note that JESUS CHRIST, the anointed man Jesus of Nazareth, ONLY BEGAN at the Jordan when he was anointed.

    Before that there was a man of Nazareth, and the WORD that was with God and was God.

    Are you saying that Jesus began as a created being, became the Christ at the Jordan, and there are two, the man of Nazareth, and God who is the Word. Then somehow, this man was taken over by God’s Word?

    #789360
     carmel 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 2,029

     

    The flesh contributes nothing.

    Nick,

    READ AND BE AWARE WHAT YOU HAVE JUST SAID:

     

    IF YOU  REFERRED TO JESUS’ FLESH BODY

    THE WORD MADE FLESH

    http://www.merriam-webster.com/

    Dictionary

    contribute


    : to give (something, such as money, goods, or time) to help a person, group, cause, or organization

    : to help to cause something to happen

    : to write (something, such as a story, poem, or essay) for a magazine

     

    NOW THE WAY I SEE IT,

    JESUS, THE WORD MADE FLESH

    JESUS’ FLESH BODY,  THE BRIDEGROOM!

    AND HIS UNIQUE FLESH AND BLOOD SUBSTANCE,  THE BRIDE

    COVERED ALL THE ABOVE THROUGH HIS LIFE AND DEATH!

    SO WHAT ACTUALLY DID YOU MEAN BY THE WORD

    CONTRIBUTE

    Peace and love in Jesus

    Charles

    #789364
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,243

    Hi T8.

    Yes .

    Jesus of Nazareth WAS ANOINTED by God with the Holy Spirit and power.[acts 10]

     

    Who was anointed?

     

    A MAN from Nazareth.

    Not Jesus Christ[which means already anointed], not Jesus of Bethlehem and not an embryo.

     

    Acts 2

    “”Jesus of Nazareth, a MAN approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did in the midst of you, as you yourselves also know..

    Do not be confused by prophetic references to him prior to his anointing.

    #789377
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 889
    • Total replies 18,309

    Okay Nick.

    Yes he was anointed by God as you say. Do you agree that he emptied himself before coming as a man and that he existed in the form of God first?

    #789390
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,243

    Hi T8,

    The Word was made flesh.

    The Word was with God and was God

    The Word, now known as Jesus Christ, emptied himself.

    #789392
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,243

    Hi t8,

    Jesus was created in his mother’s womb just as we were.

    The anointing is from everlasting.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 418 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account