Preexistence (Part 1)

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  • #225791
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2010,20:29)
    Jesus is evil as to his human nature just as we are.  He overcame that nature by living by the Spirit and so did not sin.  That is why he said only God is good for God cannot even be tempted by evil.


    Kerwin………..This is right on brother. Jesus had the same human nature we all have and overcame it by the Spirit of GOD Working (IN) Him. Jesus plainly said the is (NONE GOOD) and he was not leaving himself out of that statement. Jesus distanced GOD from all of us and himself as the (ONLY) one that was GOOD.

    The problem is those that believe Jesus preexisted can't accept that as a fact or true statement, But this is just another scripture that shows Jesus attachment to our exact existence. Good Post brother. But notice how it is dismissed by preexistences and trinitarians. T8 say yea but can we say Jesus was not Good , this intern negates that fact Jesus said he was Not GOD in what he said. So what is the bottom line? Jesus being separated from our (exact) identity.

    peace and lvoe to you and yours…………………………….gene

    #225792
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Kerwin …….what i meant to say in the above , was , his negates the fact that Jesus said he was not GOOD in what he said. i did not mean GOD sorry for the mistake , I could have corrected it if T8 would restore my editing rights. Never the less i think you understand what i was saying.

    peace and love…………………………………………gene

    #225793
     gollamudi 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Nov. 21 2010,01:09)
    Now, your turn Adam.

    John 6 NIV
    41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

    1.  Jesus CLEARLY said he “came down from heaven”.
    2.  The Jews CLEARLY understood what he said and meant.
    3.  That shows there was no “mystery” or “secret hidden meaning” in what he said.

    Adam, do you believe your Lord and King when he says he “came down from heaven”?  I do.

    peace and love,
    mike


    Hi brother Mike, I agree on John 6 as I have already told it is Christian full blown scripture on preexistence.

    This thread enters 1000 pages now. I wish Mandy is here today to witness this land mark achievement. It was my favorite thread initially you can see how I contributed to this thread daily. Still it is my favorite.

    Today I agree that N.T talks about Jesus' preexistence in different ways. But I am oriented towards Jewish Monotheism and I find preexistence hard to fit in its doctrine. No Jew would agree with Christian ideas of preexistence of Messiah. They don't agree with Christian god-man who came down from heaven in a mythical way. The concept of Messiah was there in the eternal plan of God before the foundations of the world but they never believed as Messiah was preexisting his birth. He will be a prophet like Moses born to human parents without even Virgin Birth as Christianity claims. For me there is no confusion. Messiah will be human like me and he will establish Yahweh's  Kingdom on earth and he will bring peace on earth. It is yet to be fulfilled on this earth.

    Peace to you
    Adam

    #225797
     GeneBalthrop 
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    To All…………Preexistence of Jesus as a being is a False Doctrine originating from the Gnostic's and from there to the trinity concepts, but the tie is that they all work to frame Jesus as different then we are , form a perspective of SEPARATION of our (EXACT IDENTITY) with Jesus, they move Jesus away from us as Humans and create doubt in GODS Work in Mankind through his work (in) Jesus as our (Exact Example) for the Whole Human race. A Man who was brought forth by being (BORN) as a human and perfected by ONE GOD and FATHER of us ALL. A Man who was in (EVERY WAY IDENTICAL TO US ALL).

    This is the reason John said all who do not believe Jesus as coming (IN THE FLESH) were Antichrists. Why would John say that in the first place it was because all who do not believe Jesus came into existence as a Human Being , but was a preexistence being MORPHED in a Human being As some kind of a GOD or Demigod or Angel, are causing a separation between Jesus' identity with Humanity by saying he was not truly one of Us but was a preexisting Being of some kind making him different then we are. And this is what John meant by the SPIRIT (Intellect) OF ANTICHRIST THAT WAS ALREADY IN THE WORLD even in his day. This SPIRIT of (SEPARATION) is What the Antichrist is all about. IMO

    peace and love to you all…………………………………………gene

    #225798
     mikeboll64 
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    Hi Adam,

    But I thought you told t8 that you have led 50 people to Christ.  Maybe I misread what you wrote?

    Because you can't lead anyone to a Christ that hasn't yet come, right?

    Adam, I would suggest reading the words of the gospels.  Many times the writers directly point out the OT Messianic prophecy that was fulfilled by something that Jesus did or said or something that happened to him.

    And Adam, the Jews were also expecting just a man like them.  That's why Jesus explained about “the LORD said to my Lord”.  And you still must ignore Isaiah 11 and Micah 5 and Psalm 2 to think the Messiah would be only a man like us.  This is all in the OT Adam.  So even if you choose not to believe in the NT, there is ample evidence in the OT to suggest that this Messiah would be something more than just a man like us.

    Look Adam, I like you and have nothing against you.  But this section of HN is for those of us who believe in both the OT AND the NT.  If you don't believe that Jesus is the Christ of God who was sent into the world as our savior, then maybe you should start a thread in the non-believer's section of this site where we could discuss it further.

    Thank you for acknowledging that the NT does many times teach the pre-existence of Jesus.  For that is what this thread that Mandy started was all about in the first place, right?

    peace and love to you and yours,
    mike

    #225799
     mikeboll64 
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    Hi Gene,

    I will bump what I posted to Adam to you:

    John 6 NIV
    41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

    1.  Jesus CLEARLY said he “came down from heaven”.
    2.  The Jews CLEARLY understood what he said and meant.
    3.  That shows there was no “mystery” or “secret hidden meaning” in what he said.

    Gene, do you believe your Lord and King when he says he “came down from heaven”?  I do.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #225815
     t8 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 21 2010,03:16)
    Today I agree that N.T talks about Jesus' preexistence in different ways. But I am oriented towards Jewish Monotheism and I find preexistence hard to fit in its doctrine. No Jew would agree with Christian ideas of preexistence of Messiah. They don't agree with Christian god-man who came down from heaven in a mythical way. The concept of Messiah was there in the eternal plan of God before the foundations of the world but they never believed as Messiah was preexisting his birth. He will be a prophet like Moses born to human parents without even Virgin Birth as Christianity claims. For me there is no confusion. Messiah will be human like me and he will establish Yahweh's Kingdom on earth and he will bring peace on earth. It is yet to be fulfilled on this earth.


    Yes there is truth to what you say and that is easily explained in the fact that there is 2 covenants. The first is the shadow of the next but it was necessary as the law was the school teacher that leads us to the messiah.

    The thing with the new covenant is that it is much more revealing than the first because the light is brighter and grace so much the more.

    So if you think that new things would not come to light in the new, then there would be no need for the new but more teaching from the old.

    Of course the new should not contradict or wrong the old and certainly Jesus Christ does not wrong the old, he fulfills it.

    He fulfills not only the requirements, but also the prophecies.
    Jesus the messiah taught things about himself that the old wouldn't need to say and didn't.

    It is really about believing the one from God and his words rather than staying with the yesterdays knowledge.

    If the messiah didn't come with anything new including revelation, then what would be the point of a messiah.

    Just because the Jews were limited in their understanding from the old, doesn't make them right and the messiah wrong. No it is for the Jews to accept their messiah and his words.

    It turns out that God sent his only son, to die for us and hence he paid the greatest price of all for us, i.e., the one who he created all things through.

    #225816
     t8 
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    Read this text carefully.

    John 8:56-58

    56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

    57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”

      58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Clearly the pretext is talking about Jesus only being 50 years old and thus should render his previous statement false.

    Jesus replied, “before Abraham was born, I am!”.

    Jesus said it, not me.

    Do you believe him or not?

    #225820
     t8 
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    If you think that Christ should not be a mystery to the Jews and all others then think again.

    Ephesians 3:4
    In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,

    Romans 16:25
    Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

    Notice that the mystery was long hidden in ages past.

    Jesus also said that if they had known the law, then they would have known him because the law spoke of him.

    The point is that they had an expectation for the messiah as a King David type figure that would resurrect Israel to her former glory. They hadn't figured on a plan much bigger than that, where the messiah would die for all people (gentiles included).

    Those that rejected Jesus rejected God's messiah because they wanted a messiah that was suited to their selfish needs.

    So ask yourself, why is he called a mystery if you think that the old testament interpreted view explains everything about the messiah?

    #225823
     JustAskin 
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    Mike,

    Only two questions…

    Jesus is directly created from God, you say,…so he is God from God.

    And, you say, God created the Angels through Jesus.

    1) What higher glory can a God from God have?

    2) If Jesus is God from God, how would anyone want to compare him to that which he had a hand in creating – Angels.
    (Is the Potter compared to the Pots he created?
    Is the Potter said to be greater than the pots he created?
    Is the Potter put in authority over the pots he created?
    Is God said to be greater than the Angels?
    IS God said to be greater than Jesus (Note – Not Jesus is NOT as Great as God…!))

    (These questions will be raised again)

    #225825
     t8 
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    Hi JA. There is always reward for works.
    We have salvation and we can have reward on top of that.
    I suspect that as it is written that we go from glory to glory, so it is with Christ.
    This fits with God the Father being the only one that knows all things.

    #225826
     t8 
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    John 6:38-40
    For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

    The first verse suggests that Jesus came down from Heaven. This seems to contradict the belief that he first existed as a man when he was born into this world. For if Jesus was first conceived through Mary and had no pre-existance, how could he come down from Heaven. We (Man) come into existence when we are born into this world, but would it be correct to say that we came down from Heaven? If a verse said that we came down from Heaven, would you think that we pre-existed in Heaven?

    John 1:15
    15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' ”

    John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. Surely this verse shows preexistence, at least before John the Baptist.
    Jude 1:25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    &Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

    These 2 verses you just read blatantly say that he is before all things.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    So there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. This verse alone answers your question because the universe, angels and men were made and Jesus was present when they were created.

    John 8:58
    “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

    Jesus claimed to exist before Abraham. The words I am mean I exist. So Jesus existed before Abraham.

    Revelation 22:

    16“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    Here we see that Jesus is the offspring of David, yet he is also the root of David, which at appears to show existance before King David.

    Luke 10:18
    He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

    Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man.

    Now we know that Jesus was the Word and was with God in the beginning.

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    Micah 5:2 talks about someone who will rule Israel and who's origin is from ancient times. Who but Jesus could fit that description?

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

    John 1:14
    The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[ 1:14 Or the Only Begotten] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    So Jesus was with God in the beginning. We also know from certain scriptures that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and it is assumed that Jesus gave the Law. We are also told in Acts:7:30-39 that an Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses through whom God spoke and this is the same Angel who spoke to Moses on Mount Sinai and passed on the living words (The Law) to Moses.
    30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai.
    31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice:
    32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham,
    Isaac and Jacob.'Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.
    33 “Then the Lord said to him, 'Take off your sandals; the place where you are standing is holy ground.
    34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.'
    35 “This is the same Moses whom they had rejected with the words, 'Who made you ruler and judge?' He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush.
    36 He led them out of Egypt and did wonders and miraculous signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the desert.
    37 “This is that Moses who told the Israelites, 'God will send you a prophet like me from your own people.'
    38 He was in the assembly in the desert, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers; and he received living words to pass on to us.
    39 “But our fathers refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

    We are then told in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
    1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
    2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
    3 They all ate the same spiritual food
    4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

    So is the Angel of the Lord, Christ? Well I am not sure, but I know that Christ accompanied Moses and the Israelites. Perhaps the correct model to look at is the one mentioned in Revelation 1:1
    The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

    Here we can see that the order of the Revelation started with the Originator which is God. He then passed it to Jesus Christ who sent it to his Angel and then to John. So perhaps it is possible that the Angel mentioned is the same Angel mentioned in Acts:7:30-39. Either way it still suggests that Jesus Christ existed at the time of Moses.

    Moving on we read the following in Hebrews 1:1-2

    1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
    2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    Verse 2 is talking about the son and it says that God made the universe through him, (in the context of him being a son). The word universe in this scripture means Age.

    aion {ahee-ohn'}
    1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
    2) the worlds, universe
    3) period of time, age

    We even use the word 'aion' (eon or aeon) in English to refer to Age. So if we read the last part of this verse as AGE, we get the following: appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the age.

    John 3:17
    For God did not send (apostello) his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

    apostello {ap-os-tel'-lo}
    1) to order (one) to go to a place appointed
    2) to send away, dismiss
    2a) to allow one to depart, that he may be in a state of liberty
    2b) to order one to depart, send off
    2c) to drive away

    To be sent surely implies existence otherwise you would just say born. In fact this word (sent) is similar in meaning and sound to the word Apostle (apostolos), which means “one sent forth with orders”.

    Philippians 2:5-11
    5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
    7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

    8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!
    9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
    10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
    11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Surely the above verses assumes preexistence Another look at verse 7: but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. This verse points out that Jesus humbled himself to become a (or like a) human and also a servant. So this suggests to us that he preexisted in a higher state because to humble oneself is to become lower. If he started life in this humbled state, then it would be incorrect to say that he humbled himself.

    This verse is often used in support of the trinity doctrine because of the word 'equal'. But if you are equal to something it means that you are not that thing, rather you are like that thing. This scripture is also very clear about the following: The Father is God and Jesus is Lord and that God exalted Jesus to the highest place.

    A closer look at verse 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: Now I am not sure if Jesus was exalted higher than he was before he came to this world or whether he was exalted to the exact position that he had before. But if we look at John 17:5 again we can see that Jesus asked to return to his former glory.

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    The above verse is clear about Christ's pre-existence in glory before the world began. The next verse also confirms that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven.

    John 3:12-15
    12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
    13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven, the Son of Man.
    14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,
    15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

    Ezekiel 8:1-3
    1 In the sixth year, in the sixth month on the fifth day, while I was sitting in my house and the elders of Judah were sitting before me, the hand of the Sovereign LORD came upon me there.
    2 I looked, and I saw a figure like that of a man. From what appeared to be his waist down he was like fire, and from there up his appearance was as bright as glowing metal.
    3 He stretched out what looked like a hand and took me by the hair of my head. The Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven and in visions of God he took me to Jerusalem, to the entrance to the north gate of the inner court, where the idol that provokes to jealousy stood.

    This verse is interesting in the sense that the description is very similar to the description of Jesus Christ in Revelation 1:12-18,

    12 I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands,
    13 and among the lampstands was someone “like a son of man,” dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest.
    14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire.
    15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.
    16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.
    17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
    18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

    Have a look at the next verse. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (English-NIV)
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    Now the word head in the Greek is 'kephale' which can mean head, source or master. Now if we notice the order in a time sense, we have to admit that God is the first as he is the only one who has existed for all eternity with no beginning. We also know from scripture that the man came first and the woman came from the man. So that part is correct if we use a timeline. That just leaves Christ. Did he come between God and Man. I think so, as I believe that all things came from him and this opinion does fit perfectly into this model in a time sense at least. Anyway the word Christ here is 'Christos' which means “anointed”. So the anointed is the head of Man.
    God > Christ > Man > Woman

    If God created all things for his Son and his Son was the channel for that creation to come into being, then we can only assume that Christ existed at this point. As Genesis says: Let us make Man in our image. God was talking to Christ at this point and we know that Christ is the image of God and we are the image of Christ. Therefore the image of the image of God (man) is still the image of God. But Christ is the original and first image and we can only assume again that that image existed before the image of the image. A bit like a mirror that reflects a mirror, the original mirror has to exist in order to reflect the second mirror.

    So we know that Christ preexisted before creation and now we will look at some more scriptures that show that he was born before creation itself?

    Colossians 1:15-16
    15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
    16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

    The above verse is quite clear that ALL things were created by or through Jesus.

    John 1:3
    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    So again, there is nothing that was made that didn't involve Jesus/The Word being there. Only the Father and Son were not made. God has always existed and the Son was born from God before the creation of the universe, before anything was made. The next verse describes clearly who/what was the first of God's works.
    Proverbs 8:22-30 22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
    23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
    25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
    26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
    27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
    28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
    29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
    30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

    This verse is talking about Wisdom, whom many believe is Christ. This scriptures compliments other scriptures that that teach that Jesus was given birth by God and then created all THINGS though him.
    So from this verse we can see the following points.

    1. Wisdom was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
    2. Wisdom was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
    3. Wisdom was given birth before creation.
    4. Wisdom was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.

    Some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person. Now have a look at the following verses:
    1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
    but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
    It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
    Lets look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

    • Jesus is the Truth. Yet truth is also a concept.
    • Jesus is the Way. Yet the way is also a concept.
    • Jesus is the Life. Yet life can also be a concept.

    Now look at the following mystery:

    1 Corinthians 2:6-9
    6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
    7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
    8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
    9 However, as it is written:
    “No eye has seen,
    no ear has heard,
    no mind has conceived
    what God has prepared for those who love him”

    Ephesians 3:8-10
    8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
    9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
    10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,

    Perhaps another scripture alluding to Jesus being the Wisdom of God.

    #431519
     Admin 
    Keymaster
    • Topics started 90
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    Discussion has reached 10000 posts.

    See Pre-existence (Part2) for the sequel Or feel free to read the posts in this discussion.

    Part 2 resides at the top of the forum page due to being a popular topic. Part 1 and 2 are linked in the first and last posts.

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