Preexistence

Viewing 20 posts - 13,261 through 13,280 (of 19,165 total)
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  • #281331
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    It is not by the study of words so much but verse correlation we should be doing to find doctrine.
    Men can make one word say what they want but God draws a larger picture if we search.
    If we cannot find anything then we know it should not be that important to us.

    #281332
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,18:45)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,11:20)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 27 2012,18:18)
    Hi Frank,
    Quite right.


    Scripturally wrong, Nick.  SOMEONE existed in the form of God before being made into a human being.  Who was that someone?  What does the scripture say?


    Hi MB,
    The Spirit of CHRIST was in the form of God.
    Jesus CHRIST is the same yesterday, today and forever


    N

    Christ his the only begotten son of God he his a spirit being not a spirit big difference

    #281334
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,12:33)
    Hi Frank,
    It is not by the study of words so much but verse correlation we should be doing to find doctrine.
    Men can make one word say what they want but God draws a larger picture if we search.
    If we cannot find anything then we know it should not be that important to us.


    Nick,

    I am certainly never going to waste my time making 48013 posts to this stupid forum! If you don't like my posts,then simply do not read and respond to them. Simple as that!

    #281337
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    No I would not recommend it for everyone.
    But it is not a stupid forum as gold surfaces every now and then

    #281339
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    “Christ his the only begotten son of God he his a spirit being not a spirit big difference “

    Do you have any proof of this?

    #281341
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,12:40)
    Hi Frank,
    No I would not recommend it for everyone.
    But it is not a stupid forum as gold surfaces every now and then


    Nick,

    Like I said, if you do not approve of my posts then simply do not read or respond to them.

    #281342
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,19:41)
    Hi T,
    “Christ his the only begotten son of God he his a spirit being not a spirit big difference “

    Do you have any proof of this?


    N

    I remember you saying to me to go look up scriptures and do my own work,

    well this is the time for you now :D

    #281344
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    You say it
    You back it up.

    #281345
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Frank,
    Why should we give up on you?

    #281354
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,12:51)
    Hi Frank,
    Why should we give up on you?


    Nick,

    You have to have something to offer other than complaining about my post. Like I said, if you do not approve of my posts then simply do not read or respond to them.

    #281355
    mikeboll64
    Blocked

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,18:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,11:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,18:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,10:57)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,17:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,10:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,17:20)
    Mike,

    I have never said “Phil 2 explains EXACTLY what say no scripture teaches.”


    I never claimed you did say it.  You claim that no scripture teaches Jesus existed before being a man.  And I said that Phil 2 teaches EXACTLY what you say no scripture teaches.

    Phil 2 DOES teach that Jesus was existing as something other than a man before being made into a man.

    What prophesied, Frank?  The PERSON who was CALLED BY THE NAME “HAGGAI”?  Or a feast?  Which one, Frank?

    (Surely you can't think a feast prophesied to the Jews, can you?  Why not just answer the question, Frank?)


    Mike,

    Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach that Yahshua existed before being a man.


    Phil 2 is one of many scriptures that teach it.  

    Frank, do you believe Jesus existed as a man before being made into a man?  YES or NO?

    (Please answer the bolded question above also.)


    Mike,

    I believe that I have clearly made known in all of my previous post here that I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth? What part of what I have always made clearly known on this forum do you not understand?  ???


    Frank, do you believe Jesus existed as a man before being made into a man?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    I believe that I have made it quite clear that I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth here on earth as a man. What part of this do you not understand?  ???


    The part where you can't answer simple questions. I've made them big and bold so you can see them easily – why won't you answer them?

    #281357
    terraricca
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,19:51)
    Hi T,
    You say it
    You back it up.


    N

    you only collect what you have sowed right ???

    #281358
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,13:05)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,18:26)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,11:19)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,18:14)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,10:57)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,17:47)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Feb. 28 2012,10:45)

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 27 2012,17:20)
    Mike,

    I have never said “Phil 2 explains EXACTLY what say no scripture teaches.”


    I never claimed you did say it.  You claim that no scripture teaches Jesus existed before being a man.  And I said that Phil 2 teaches EXACTLY what you say no scripture teaches.

    Phil 2 DOES teach that Jesus was existing as something other than a man before being made into a man.

    What prophesied, Frank?  The PERSON who was CALLED BY THE NAME “HAGGAI”?  Or a feast?  Which one, Frank?

    (Surely you can't think a feast prophesied to the Jews, can you?  Why not just answer the question, Frank?)


    Mike,

    Nowhere in Scripture does it ever teach that Yahshua existed before being a man.


    Phil 2 is one of many scriptures that teach it.  

    Frank, do you believe Jesus existed as a man before being made into a man?  YES or NO?

    (Please answer the bolded question above also.)


    Mike,

    I believe that I have clearly made known in all of my previous post here that I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth? What part of what I have always made clearly known on this forum do you not understand?  ???


    Frank, do you believe Jesus existed as a man before being made into a man?  YES or NO?


    Mike,

    I believe that I have made it quite clear that I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth here on earth as a man. What part of this do you not understand?  ???


    The part where you can't answer simple questions.  I've made them big and bold so you can see them easily – why won't you answer them?


    Mike,

    I believe that I have made it quite clear that I do not believe Yahshua pre-existed his birth here on earth as a man. What part of this do you not understand? ???

    #281360
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi T,
    You say
    “Christ his the only begotten son of God he his a spirit being not a spirit big difference”

    What does this mean and where is Christ called a SPIRIT BEING ?

    #281361
    terraricca
    Participant

    Mike

    Frank as a eye problem that is why I told him to get a white cane so we can read it to him
    :D

    #281364
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 28 2012,13:11)
    Mike

    Frank as a eye problem that is why I told him to get a white cane so we can read it to him  
    :D


    terraricca,

    Then why is it that I can clearly see that you are a total idiot and that you can't? :D

    #281367
    NickHassan
    Participant

    hmmm

    #281370
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 28 2012,13:24)
    hmmm


    48025 and counting! :D

    #281373
    Frank4YAHWEH
    Participant

    The Pre-existence
    Philippians 2:5-11
    By Voy Wilks
    1/29/92

    “Having this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Messiah Yahshua, who, though he was in the FORM of Elohim, did not count EQUALITY WITH YAHWEH a thing to be GRASPED, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on the tree. Therefore Yahweh has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Yahshua every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth and every tongue should confess that Yahshua Messiah is Savior, to the glory of Yahweh the Father” (Phil. 2:5-11 RSV, Emphasis added).

    If Yahshua Messiah did indeed pre-exist, then Philippians 2:5-11 would appear to lend support to this view, on the other hand, if he did not pre-exist, then these words must be accepted at face value, not in an extended, mysterious sense.

    Since most if not all other Scriptures indicate Yahshua did not pre-exist except in Yahweh's plan, * it is my view that the words in Philippians 2:5-11 should be accepted at face value, as words are normally used in a natural sense. However, people love a mystery so much that one is sometimes invented where there is no mystery. Let us compare these opposite views.

    o The mysterious view:
    Before becoming man, Yahshua was Deity, equal with Yahweh (or nearly so), totally like Yahweh in every respect, but gave up his Deity, by changing himself from Deity (that which can not die) to a human being (which can and must die), and occupied a human form. He emptied himself, becoming a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. He has now been highly exalted by the Father.

    o The straight-forward view:
    Yahshua [like all men], was made in the likeness and in the image [the form] of Yahweh. He did not count equality with Yahweh a thing to be GRASPED (ruthlessly seized). Being in human form (as are all men), he emptied himself and became a servant to the human race, then humbled himself even more and died on the tree. he has now been highly exalted by the Father.

    Verse six holds the key to the understanding of Paul's message. The Roman Catholic view however, is expressed in this way:

    “Though he had always existed as G-d, yet he did not grasp at this equality with G-d” (Phil. 2:6 Norlie Version).

    It is not true, of course, that Yahshua was (or is) “equal with Yahweh.” Yahshua reported to his disciples, “… my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28; 4:34; 10:29; 13:16; 15:20).

    Nor has Yahshua “always existed as G-d.” On the contrary, Scriptures inform us there is

    o Only ONE true El (Eph. 4:4,5; 1 Tim. 2:5 Bethel Edition).
    o Only ONE true Elohim (Deut. 4:35,39; 1 Tim 1:17 Bethel Ed.).
    o Only ONE true Yahweh (Neh. 9:5; Ps. 83:18; Isa. 43:10,11; 44:6; 45:5,6,18). These are one and the same person, the Father.

    This being the case, we can forget the Roman Catholic view that Yahshua has “always existed as G-d.” The KIng James Version, the RSV, and and a number of others do not convey the message that Yahshua has always existed as Deity, as does the Norlie Version.

    Phil. 2:6. Being in the “FORM OF Elohim” is not necessarily identical to “being Elohim.” In this case, there is a vast difference. Adam was created in the image and likeness of Yahweh and we, being sons of Adam, are also formed in the likeness and image (form, shape) of Yahweh. This is indicated in Scripture:

    “Then Elohim said, let us make man in our 88 IMAGE, AFTER OUR LIKENESS; … So Elohim created man in HIS own IMAGE, in the IMAGE of Elohim HE created him …” (Gen. 1:26,27 RSV).

    Just as other men are made in the image (shape, form) of Yahweh, so Yahshua too, was made (formed) in Yahweh's image. The Tyndale Version of 1534 reads, “… Ch-ist J-sus: Which being in the shape of G-d, …” (Phil. 2:6).

    This explains why Yahshua was “found in human FORM” (Phil. 2:8), and in the LIKENESS of men” (Phil. 2:7); as well as, in the FORM of El” (Phil. 2:6). Man is made in the image, the form, of Yahweh. Let us now review, point by point, the evidence given by the Apostle Paul:

    Phil. 2:6. Like other men, Yahshua was in the form (image, shape) of Elohim. Perhaps there were in Paul's day those who claimed that Yahshua was not really a human being, but was Divine (that is, Deity). If so, verses 7-9 should have dispelled this notion.

    Phil 2:6. Yahshua felt that he should not try to GRASP (seize illegally) equality with Elohim. Does this refer to a time BEFORE he lived as a man; a time when he is assumed to have pre-existed as Deity? No. This evidently speaks of a time after his resurrection from the dead.

    Phil. 2:7. Yahshua was BORN in the LIKENESS of men (Gal. 4:4; Heb. 2:11,12,16; Luke 2:11; Mt. 1:18; 2:1).

    Phil. 2:7. Yahshua took the FORM (shape, likeness) of a slave. Was this before, or after, his birth to Mary? It was only after. It was after he was BORN as a human being that he took the roll of a servant; as one who serves (Luke 22:7).

    Phil. 2:7. Yahshua EMPTIED himself. Are we to assume this refers to a time when Yahshua gave up Deity to become a man? No. This refers to his denial of the pleasures and longings of a normal, physical life (wife, children, family, home, and finally his death on the tree), so that he could better fulfill his mission as a prospective Redeemer. There is no allusion to the supposed giving up of a former life as a Deity in the heavens. There is only ONE true Deity, remember. This one true El is Yahweh the Father (Rom. 16:27; John 5:44, Bethel Edition). ***

    Phil. 2:8. Being found in HUMAN FORM, as are all men, Yahshua humbled himself and became obedient, even to the death on the tree. This is absolute proof that Yahshua was not, originally, a Deity (an El); because the very meaning and essence of Deity is an indestructible life. It is impossible for a true El to die. Spiritual beings are not subject to death (Gen. 21:33; Deut. 32:40,41; Isa. 40:28, Bethel Edition). *** Deity and death are opposite and contradictory terms. Spiritual beings possess INDESTRUCTIBLE life (Heb. 7:16 RSV). therefore Yahshua, who was dead for 72 hours, did not at any time exist as a divine person (a Deity, an El), BEFORE his resurrection from the dead (Heb. 7:16).

    Phil. 2:9. There fore (meaning, “for this reason;” that is; his people {Verse 8}), For this reason Yahweh has highly exalted Yahshua. When? BEFORE he lived as a man? No. According to the Apostle Peter and Paul, he was highly exalted AFTER his resurrection from the dead (Rom.1:3,4; Acts 2:33; 5:31).

    Phil 2:9. Yahshua has been given a name above every name. Since many others have had the name “Yahshua,” this consist of greater honor that is implied by the name alone, For example: By his RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, Yahshua has been DECLARED to be all of the following and more:

    (1) The SON of Yahweh (Rom. 1:4; Heb. 1:4,5).
    (2) The promised MESSIAH (Acts 2:36).
    (3) Yahweh's anointed (Acts 4:26 RSV).
    (4) A PRINCE and a SAVIOR (Acts 5:31; 13:23).
    (5) Our Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7).
    (6) The Mediator between mankind and the heavenly Father (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 9:15; 12:24).

    If he had not arose from the dead he would have filled none of these offices. Until that momentous event, these were only planed for him – from ancient times.

    Phil 2:10,11. Every knee in heaven and on earth shall bow to Yahshua, and every tongue will confess that he is the Messiah, etc.

    Objections

    Objections may be voiced from the statement above, Yahshua did not try to grasp (seize illegally) equality with Yahweh” (Phil. 2:6). Other versions indicate this is the correct understanding, as can be noted in the following quotations:

    o “… he did not regard equality with G-d something to be POSSESSED BY FORCE” The Jewish New Testament).

    o “…yet he
    did not think to SNATCH AT equality with G-d, …” (New English Bible).

    o “… but he did not think that BY FORCE he should try to become equal with G-d, …” (Good News Bible).

    o “Who, being in the form of Elohim did NOT strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh: …” (Holy Name Bible).

    o “… who, although he was existing in G-d's form, gave no consideration to a SEIZURE, namely, that he should be equal with G-d” (New World Translation).

    Conclusion

    Having carefully examined Philippians 2:5-11, we see there is no mystery. The evidence does not indicate that Yahshua pre-existed as Deity (or as an angel) before he lived as a man. Instaed, the language is plain and to the point, stating that Yahshua (like other men), was formed in the likeness (the shape) of the Most High Father, Yahweh.

    Yahshua did not try to prematurely to seize by force a coveted position in the heavens, but awaited the Father's pleasure. He first enduring the sufferings on the tree and, only later, enjoyed being highly exalted by the Father.

    “Searching what, or what manner of TIME the Spirit of Messiah which was in them did SIGNIFY when it testified beforehand the SUFFERINGS OF MESSIAH and the GLORY that was to FOLLOW” (1 Peter 1:11 KJV).

    We can give thanks to both Yahshua Messiah, and to Yahweh the heavenly Father for their great and lasting love to mankind.

    Halleluyah!

    * We have about 40 separate articles dealing with the pre-existence. ASK FOR THEM.

    ** Ask for the paper explaining the use of “us & our” in Genesis 1:26.

    *** Ask for our leaflet, “Elohim: Singular Or Plural?”

    **** Ask for the papers, “Can a Spiritual Being Die?,” and, “Yahshua: Yahweh of the O.T.?”

    Addendum: Phil. 2:6

    “Who, being in the form of G-d, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY to be equal with G-d; …” (Phil 2:6 KJV).

    “Who, though he was in the form of G-d, did not count equality with G-d a thing to be GRASPED” (RSV).

    Ben Wilson (Diaglott); “… did not meditate a usurpation to be like G-d.”

    Footnote in The Diaglott.

    The Greek word, “harpagmon, being a word of very rare occurrence, a great variety of translations have been given. The following may serve as examples:

    Clarke 'Who … did not think it a matter to be earnestly desired.'
    Cyprian 'Did not earnestly effect.'
    Wakefield ' Did not think of eagerly retaining.'
    Stuart 'Did not regard – as an object of solicitous desire.'
    Sharpe 'Thought not – a thing to be seized.'
    Kneeland 'Did not eagerly grasp.'
    Dickinson 'Did not violently strive.'
    Turnbull 'Did not meditate a usurpation'”

    Other Translations

    o “… he laid no claim to equality with God” (REB).

    o “… did not regard equality with G-d something to be possessed by force” (The Jewish N.T.).

    o “… did not think to snatch at equality with G-d” (NEB)

    o “… did not think by force he should try to become equal with G-d” (Good News Bible)

    o “… did not strive to claim for himself equality with Yahweh” (Holy Name Bible).

    o “… who, … gave no consideration to seizure, namely that he should be equal with G-d” (NWT).

    o “… did not reckon His equality with G-d a treasure to be tightly grasped” (The Weymouth New Testament Online Bible [WEY]).

    o “… did not think this equality with G-d was a thing to be grasped or retained' (Amplified Bible).

    o “… did not deem equality with G-d something to be grasped at” (NAB).

    o “… did not regard equality with G-d a thing to be grasped” (NASB).

    o “… did not consider equality with G-d something to be grasped” (NIV).

    o “… counted not the being on equality with Yahweh a thing to be grasped. …” (Bethel Edition).

    o “… Counted not the being on an equality with G-d a thing to be grasped; …” (ASV).

    o “… Not a thing to be seized accounted the being equal with G-d. …” (Emphasised Bible).

    o “… did not regard equality with G-d as something to be exploited” (RSV)

    The following is an excerpt from:

    Who says Christ is GOD ?
    “A Refute”
    written 1-14-2004
    refined August 19, 2011
    by DJ. Love, Bnei HaMashalim

    Philippians 2:5-6
    5 Let this mind (Holy Spirit) be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua:
    6 Who, being in the form(Spiritual Image) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God (in Spiritual Righteousness Only – Jeremiah 23:6

    Oh Boy, if this misunderstanding doesn't reek of Satan (Source of Human Nature) then nothing does! Satan, who sees itself as the rightful heir of YHVH, has just used its very own selfish influence (Human Nature) to make those without understanding to think that the Messiah desires to be equal to YHVH; but it is Satan (Not Messiah) that stated it would be “Like the Most High” (Isaiah 14:14). Sounds like Satan's false messiah is the “Anti-Messiah”.
    Also see: “Preexistence Revealed” from the above web site.

    Following is an excerpt from:
    “Did Our Savior Pre-exist?” By John V. Cordaro:

    The Form of Elohim

    This brings us to the most difficult passage of Scripture to understand. The key to
    understanding it lies in your stand concerning the pre-existence doctrine as a whole. If
    you reject what has been written up to this point and continue to hold unto a belief in the pre-existence, you will most likely fail to comprehend this last passage as well. Those that are not locked into a preconceived idea will grasp its meaning much easier.The passage in question, Ph.2:5-9, reads as follows; “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Elohim, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore Yahweh also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:” (KJV)

    To begin with, what does verse 5 mean? Does it mean that we should have the same
    mind as Messiah Yahshua before or after his earthly birth? Paul is telling the Philippians to have the same mind as Messiah Yahshua . If Yahshua pre-existed, he certainly did not carry the name Messiah Yahshua. That name can only be applied to the historical Yahshua, not the being who supposedly pre-existed as “the Word.” Yahshua did not officially become “the Anointed” or “the Messiah” until he was baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:38).

    As a child, Yahshua “waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of
    Yahweh was upon him” (Lu.2:40). Even at that time Yahshua knew who he was, knew
    who his Father was (Lu.2:49), and knew what he had to do. By the time of his baptism
    he was so filled with wisdom, knowledge, Spirit, and power that Paul says he was “in
    the form (or likeness) of Elohim.” It does not say he “was Elohim.” Yet, Yahshua did
    not allow that power and wisdom to corrupt him. Nor did he, for one moment, consider
    himself Yahweh's equal. He knew his Father was greater than himself (Jn.10:29; 13:16; 14:28). The RSV and many other versions correctly translate Ph.2:6 as follows; “Who, though he was in the form of [Elohim], did not count equality with [Yahweh] a thing to be grasped.”

    Yahshua did not strip himself of any pre-existent power or glory. He simply humbled
    himself and made himself of no reputation even though he was far more knowledgeable
    and powerful than any of his contemporaries. Instead of glorifying himself and expecting others to serve him, he chose to become a servant. He became like most men, common and unassuming as compared to the politically powerful and famous.

    In addition to not exalting himself in the eyes of man, he further humbled himself by
    becoming totally obedient to the laws an
    d will of His Father Yahweh. As a reward for
    his obedience, Yahweh has highly exalted him. A future exaltation will be the reward of all true believers if they, too, will humble themselves as Yahshua did.

    This study has only touched upon certain aspects of the pre-existence doctrine. For
    additional information, please see the study entitled “Yahshua the Messiah is not
    Almighty Yahweh.” That study will explain many other verses used to support the
    pre-existence. Among the verses discussed are; Ge.1:26; 19:24; Ps.110:5; Ze.12:10;
    Mi.5:2; Jn.1:1,10; 8:58; 12:37-41; Acts 20:28; 1 Cor.8:6; 10:4; Eph.3:9; Col.1:16; 1
    Tim.3:16; and Heb.1:2. The study also explains such terms as elohim and echad.

    SOURCE

    #281377
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Frank4YAHWEH @ Feb. 28 2012,13:44)
    Scripture clearly teaches that Yahshua existed here on earth as a man.


    Frank. We know that. Scripture is also clear that he existed in the form of God, emptied himself, and came in the flesh.

    Existing in the form of God does not negate him existing in the flesh also. If it did, then scripture is wrong.

    You need to accommodate all scripture, not just the one's that scratch your itching your ears. You know this, so how about doing something about it?

    Your job is not to change scripture, ignore it, or to only promote that which you agree with. Your job should be to learn from it. This requires humility.

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