Preexistence (Part 1)

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  • #54045
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,10:53)
    What is this text saying?


    Good question! It depends on who you ask; you will certainly get all sorts of answers. For you, it means that Christ preexisted and came in the guise of a man. I do not believe this. I do not believe the Messiah was sent into the world simply to don flesh! In my opinion, that would not make him very human —– even if he willingly gave up prior glory. How nice of him to stoop to my level? No, he was a true son/Son.

    No doubt this commitment to keeping a low profile about his true identity is exactly what Philippians is referring to, and removes this section of scripture from the mystical clutches of “kenotic Christology”. This system belief, the handmaiden of “the incarnation,” teaches that Christ emptied himself of his “pre-incarnate divinity” before he was conceived. How much simpler it is to place these verses in the specific context of the witness of Christ's life as revealed in the gospels.

    #54052
     kenrch 
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    Heb 4:15  For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

    If Jesus was a supernatural being more than any human walking the earth except for sin then His sacrifice is void.  Jesus himself was just as you and I except for sin.  All of the Father dwelt in Jesus that's why jesus said over and over that HE DOES NOTHING but He did and said what the Father told Him to do.

    Again we are forgiven of sin WE HAVE NO SIN we claim the sacrifice of Christ.  Other than the amount of the Holy Spirit we are the same as our elder Brother.  Satan has us deceived.  How could Jesus expect us to do greater works than He did if we think of ourselves as anything less that Christ.  

    Jesus is the Head of the body YES but His body is cripple thinking that “only Jesus could do that”.  Peter walked on water before the sacrifice of Christ.  When Jesus calmed the storm Jesus said “oh ye of little faith”.  Wasn't Jesus saying that the apostles could have calmed the storm if they believed.

    Jesus was the Son of man filled with the Spirit of God.  We are sons and daughters of man with some of the Spirit of God.

    Luk 10:21  In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

    Sounds very familiar.  This happens daily now around the world.  The Holy Spirit surely is visting someone somewhere on the earth.

    Jesus in Himself could do nothing by His own admission.

    Again, I'm certainly not taking anything away from Jesus the only begotten.  But if we don't realize just who we are then how are we to perform the miracles He said we would.  Unless you believe what some believe, that miracles were just for the first century church.

    The Word preexisted in the mind of God and was manifested flesh. The only Son like that all other of God's children were concieved with a fleshly father.  For us it's all spiritual. Before Jesus all beings were created through the Son by the Father just as Light was created by the Father through the Word.

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    #54054
     t8 
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    To Not3in1.

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,07:23)
    I do not believe this. I do not believe the Messiah was sent into the world simply to don flesh! In my opinion, that would not make him very human


    What makes someone human is their nature.

    If they have human nature, they are human.

    If Christ partook of human nature, then he became human. His existence before being human (partaking of the flesh) wouldn't counter that.

    #54055
     t8 
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    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,07:23)
    I do not believe the Messiah was sent into the world simply to don flesh!


    He came into the world to destroy the works of the evil one.

    He took on flesh because Adam gave his authority to God's adversary and Christ took it back by being the second Adam.

    If he came as an angelic being, I don't think he could have fulfilled the law on behalf of men. He came as a man as to fulfill that which Adam the original man, had not.

    He didn't come to partake of flesh for flesh sake, but to destroy the works of the enemy.

    #54056
     t8 
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    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 31 2007,07:23)
    No doubt this commitment to keeping a low profile about his true identity is exactly what Philippians is referring to, and removes this section of scripture from the mystical clutches of “kenotic Christology”. This system belief, the handmaiden of “the incarnation,” teaches that Christ emptied himself of his “pre-incarnate divinity” before he was conceived. How much simpler it is to place these verses in the specific context of the witness of Christ's life as revealed in the gospels.


    I don't know anything about “Kenotic Christology”, but my source for saying what I have is Philippians 2:5-11.

    Scripture is enough for me. Of course interpreting it is where we can err.

    #54064
     942767 
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    Hi:

    If God wanted us to know that Jesus pre-existed his Virgin birth he would have told us that he did. He is not the author of confusion. Any way what matters, is that He loves us and gave his life for us as shown clearly in the scriptures so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he lives forever more to make intercession for us, and that by his shed blood we have forgiveness for sin.

    God Bless

    #54066
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,14:26)
    He didn't come to partake of flesh for flesh sake, but to destroy the works of the enemy.


    Yes, this is precisely the point. Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. Could he have done that if he was, say, a pre-existent spirit son who was re-incarnated into flesh? My answer is no! Why? Because he would not be fully human then. He is an incarnation of a previous life. This would not be a human person. This would be a “person” who previously existed who put on flesh!

    Jesus came to destroy the works of the enemy. Could he have done that if he was literally God's Son? Absolutely! Why? Because he would be God's representative in the flesh (see the difference?). As such, he would possess the authority to take down God's enemy.

    Otherwise, the enemy may say to the previously-lived-spirit-son, “Hey, who do you think you are? You can't touch me! You don't have any authority; why even the flesh that you are wearing is borrowed.” Whereas if the enemy met God's Son he might say, “Hey, don't torture me yet before me time…..send me into that herd of pigs over there – pleeeeze!”

    God's literal Son can be a representative of his Father because (for lack of a better way to say this), he has his Father's blood flowing through his veins. Who can touch that?

    #54068
     t8 
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    If you have human nature that makes you human.

    Your reason doesn't change that fact.

    If Elijah came again in the flesh, he would still be a man.

    It is written of Christ”

    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    #54069
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Not3,
    The god of this world had a secure squatters kingdom established here among men with an order of authority down to the demons. Only God could break it down. God needed a vessel for His Spirit to do this work as He does not come to tiny earth. He found a willing servant in heaven, His monogenes Son, whao agreed to come knowing opf his future rewards, and He sent him here guiding his growth and at the age of 30 human years empowered him eternally to do this victorious work. We continue it till they return.

    #54070
     t8 
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    Quote (942767 @ May 31 2007,10:05)
    Hi:

    If God wanted us to know that Jesus pre-existed his Virgin birth he would have told us that he did. He is not the author of confusion. Any way what matters, is that He loves us and gave his life for us as shown clearly in the scriptures so that we could be reconciled to God, and that he lives forever more to make intercession for us, and that by his shed blood we have forgiveness for sin.

    God Bless


    Hi 94.

    First off, we know that Christ is a hidden mystery that is revealed in the last days. So the clear teaching you speak of is perhaps not in order, rather a revelation of this.

    Romans 16:25-27
    25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
    26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him
    27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

    But there are many scriptures that teach he did or demonstrate that he did. These seem to be applicable to a mystery being revealed.

    For a list of some of the more compelling revelations of Christ, go here:
    http://www.heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm

    I believe that Christ existed in heaven in glory with God before emptying himself of his glory and becoming a humble man. I also believe that he returned to the same glory he had before with God.

    It is these and other scriptures that clinch it for me.

    Also, where is it written that he didn't pre-exist? If you say that it should be a clear teaching, where is the clear teaching that says that he existed for the first time ever in the womb of Mary?

    #54078
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,15:29)
    Micah 5:2
    “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”


    The Father is the Ancient of Days, himself, whose origins are not even measurable. Jesus comes from such a Father. This does not mean that Jesus, himself, was alive during these “ancient times,” it only says that the one who comes out of Judah will have ancient origins. Anyway, this is my take. It certainly looks like it can lend itself to both your view and mine.

    #54079
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,15:50)
    Hi Not3,
    The god of this world had a secure squatters kingdom established here among men with an order of authority down to the demons. Only God could break it down. God needed a vessel for His Spirit to do this work as He does not come to tiny earth. He found a willing servant in heaven, His monogenes Son, whao agreed to come knowing opf his future rewards, and He sent him here guiding his growth and at the age of 30 human years empowered him eternally to do this victorious work. We continue it till they return.


    Nick, there is so much here in what you say that I am not even sure where to start. I'm a bit taken back because some of what you write sounds foreign to my ears. Meaning, I have not read this account in scripture.

    Jesus is a vessel as we are vessels for God's work. But it sounds like you are saying that Jesus is in fact “only” a “vessel” that God's Spirit lives in (meaning an incarnation?) Or do you mean to imply that Jesus is filled to the fullness of God's Spirit but remains his own person? I agree with the later.

    In regards to “finding a willing servant in heaven” that looks a little like God was on a mission, possibly interviewing sons to see who would go. See, in Isaiah it says that God looked around and saw that there was NOONE, and so he worked salvation for himself. His “arm” (offspring) worked salvation FOR him. God had a literal Son who was born on earth. This sounds like the scriptures that I have read.

    If the preexistent Jesus agreed to come to earth because of future rewards – well – that just makes it less special for me. He did it for the prizes and not for me?

    Then God empowered him to do the work of the cross (so that in and of itself, in my opinion, robs Jesus of the honor of his sufferings and death for us on our behalf) and then Jesus got to be “exhaulted” back up to the very same place he left. This does not sound like the scriptures I read, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm missing something here?

    #54082
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (t8 @ May 30 2007,15:56)
    I also believe that he returned to the same glory he had before with God.


    Jesus went to the cross with the encouragement that glory would be his in the future. He was scared; he prayed and begged that the Father would find another way…… Who would do these things if they knew they were going right back up to be with God (a place he had been before)? Goodness, that doesn't require any faith, does it?

    Why sweat it, Jesus? Why worry? Why negotiate with your Father? It can only hurt for a while and then, boom! Your back with your Dad – where you were before.

    What kind of reward would this be for Jesus? If God was looking around heaven, as Nick suggests, trying to find a son to go to earth…………he certainly would not have been successful by saying, “OK, any son that will go for me, will suffer and die and then as a reward he can come back up to the place he was before – who will go? Let me see some hands!” I don't think anyone would go, do you? In fact that is what God said in Isaiah……he looked around and there was noone to go for him.

    Jesus didn't know what was ahead of him. He trusted his Father who told him he would be given the name above every name – he would be given everything if he would do this for him; if he would sacrifice his life. Here's the thing, it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice if Jesus just left his beautiful home in glory with the Father, came down only in guise as a man, did a job, and returned to his same position. I don't know, t8, that just doesn't sound right to me.

    #54088
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    He went back to greater glory at the right hand of power.

    #54090
     Not3in1 
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    But the scriptures don't promise “greater” glory – just the same glory he had – right?

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