Preexistence (Part 1)

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  • #53974
     Not3in1 
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    The belief that Jesus was alive before his conception raises a number of questions about his nature. Is it possible to be a human being in any meaningful sense if one does not originate in the womb of one's mother?

    John Knox said this, “We can have the humanity of Christ without the preexistence and we can have the preexistence without the humanity. There is absolutely no way of having both.”

    The Messiah, according to scripture was to be a descendant of David, of Abraham (Gal. 3:16), and the seed of the women (Gen. 3:15). Paul constantly thinks of Christ as the last Adam (man). If he existed as a person before his conception, in what sense is he – the real person – a human being and a descendant of David and Abraham?

    What do other's think? If you believe Jesus existed prior to his birth, please give your scriptural understanding. As most of you know, I contend for the Son of God beginning his life – for the first time – at conception.

    If Jesus is the Son, and words mean anything, a “son” is derived and dependent.

    #53975
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    If Jesus is the Word and words mean anything then the word is not a thought or an idea, but an expression of a thought or idea.

    #53978
     Not3in1 
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    John 1:14
    ….and the word (expression of a thought, idea, plan) became flesh.”

    #53986
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    Thank you.
    So the Word is not an idea or a thought, but an expression of such things, that BECAME FLESH.

    #53992
     Not3in1 
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    Cannot thoughts be expressed?

    #53993
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Not3,
    Indeed,
    And this thought was expressed and with the Father before partaking of flesh.

    #53998
     Not3in1 
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    Are you sure?

    The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. The teachings of preexistence seem to be missing from Peter and Paul's messages. I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us. Peter seems to be clueless about this former life as well. Jesus is motivated by what he will receive (a typical human response) after he sacrifices his life…..immortality and life with God, his Father. If he was with his Father prior to being born, he certainly never gave us any teachings on the subject. Did he think we didn't need to know about his former life?

    #54002
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Not3,
    You say
    “The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. “
    Where?
    Scripture says the monogenes son was sent into the world.[1Jn4]

    #54011
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:41)
    Are you sure?

    The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT.  The teachings of preexistence seem to be missing from Peter and Paul's messages.  I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us.  Peter seems to be clueless about this former life as well.  Jesus is motivated by what he will receive (a typical human response) after he sacrifices his life…..immortality and life with God, his Father.  If he was with his Father prior to being born, he certainly never gave us any teachings on the subject.  Did he think we didn't need to know about his former life?


    Hi not3,
    Peter called Christ the Holy One[1P1] and referred to his glory seen on the mountain[2P1]. He knew him to be the Son of God and that is the most important fact about him.

    He taught in Acts 2 about the prophet who was to come and the one who would be shown to be the messiah because he was not allowed to rot.

    He is a true pastor and rightly did not expound deeply on his origins as it is a distraction for so many leading them to confuse him with his Greater Father and out of such nonsense has sprouted nonbiblical teachings such as trinity.

    #54027
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,09:28)

    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 30 2007,07:41)
    Are you sure?

    The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT.  The teachings of preexistence seem to be missing from Peter and Paul's messages.  I have yet to read from the letter's of Paul stories surrounding Jesus' life before he joined us.  Peter seems to be clueless about this former life as well.  Jesus is motivated by what he will receive (a typical human response) after he sacrifices his life…..immortality and life with God, his Father.  If he was with his Father prior to being born, he certainly never gave us any teachings on the subject.  Did he think we didn't need to know about his former life?


    Hi not3,
    Peter called Christ the Holy One[1P1] and referred to his glory seen on the mountain[2P1]. He knew him to be the Son of God and that is the most important fact about him.

    He taught in Acts 2 about the prophet who was to come and the one who would be shown to be the messiah because he was not allowed to rot.

    He is a true pastor and rightly did not expound deeply on his origins as it is a distraction for so many leading them to confuse him with his Greater Father and out of such nonsense has sprouted nonbiblical teachings such as trinity.


    I believe the last part of your quote makes things too tidy. I believe that Peter didn't emphasize or give more messages surrounding Jesus' previous life because there wasn't such a thing aside from God. Peter knew Jesus was the son of Mary and Jo. What made Peter believe he was the Son of God was the miracles and let's not forget the audible voice of Almighty God confirming the fact. :)

    The clear teachings of Jesus' beginnings are found in the story of his birth in the gospels. This is how people knew Jesus – from Nazareth – the carpenter's son.

    #54031
     NickHassan 
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    Hi not3,
    I agree that the people of Jesus's day saw him only as a son of Mary.
    Should we take their natural observations as the whole truth?
    Those with spiritual eyes including John the Baptist and even demoniacs, saw him as the being he disguised as it distracted men and made them want to kill him, the Son of God.

    #54033
     t8 
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    Philippians 2:5-115 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. What is this text saying?

    • He had divine nature
    • He humbled himself from his former position
    • He became a man and died
    • He was exalted to the highest position after he died
    • He is the Lord, to the glory of his and our GodSo if Christ didn't pre-exist, then how could he have had divine nature and then humbled himself and came as a man?Remember that he made himself nothing and became a servant. How can you do that if the first time you exist is as an unborn child?For example, we who are born as human, cannot say that we humbled ourselves can we? Or we cannot say that we formerly had divine nature or God's nature can we?Yet if you make the argument that Jesus is like us in that he was born as a man and didn't pre-exist, then surely we could apply the pre-existent language in the above text to ourselves too. But which one of us could justly do that?
    #54034
     Adam Pastor 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2007,21:12)
    Hi Not3,
    You say
    “The bible speaks of Jesus coming into being through conception and birth – these are the clear teachings of the NT. “
    Where?


    (Mat 1:18)  Now the birth [genesis] of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    Now we know what genesis means, don't we?
    Ans: Beginning!
    So, the beginning of Jesus the Messiah was on this wise …

    #54035
     NickHassan 
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    Hi AP,
    Number 1083
    Transliteration:
    gennesis {ghen'-nay-sis}
    Word Origin:
    from 1080
    Part of Speech:
    adjective
    Usage in the KJV:
    birth 2

    Total: 2
    Definition:
    begat, engendering
    nativity, birth

    Surely you do not believe that the book of Genesis was the beginning of all things?
    God and the sons of God preceded that history.
    So your comment does not add.

    #54043
     Not3in1 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2007,10:40)
    Hi not3,
    I agree that the people of Jesus's day saw him only as a son of Mary.
    Should we take their natural observations as the whole truth?
    Those with spiritual eyes including John the Baptist and even demoniacs, saw him as the being he disguised as it distracted men and made them want to kill him, the Son of God.


    See, I don't believe that Jesus was in guise (as a man). I believe he was truly and utterly the Son of God.

    Natural observations are natural for a reason (not artificial, simple and sincere).

    Jesus then had the OK from his Father and began with the miraculous stuff…..this was to show that not only was he the son of Man, but that he was also the Son of God. How else would people believe who he was? Peter certainly took note and professed him to be the Son of the Living God.

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