Preexistence (Part 2)

This topic contains 8,150 replies, has 49 voices, and was last updated by  The Word’s Watchman 8 hours, 44 minutes ago.

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  • #834737
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    What in the world are you talking about now. Brain’s , does this have thing to do with Jesus Christ being just a man?     Later

    #834738
     Jodi 
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    2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    If we have died and our bodies have decayed, we know that we have a building prepared for us from God.

    2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

    Eternal life is from God/heaven and is brought to us through Christ.

    Is it a coincidence that Adam and Eve when they had sinned found themselves to be naked and felt the need to hide themselves from God?

    4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    When Adam and Eve sinned and knew that they were naked, God sacrificed an animal and clothed them. Was that prophetic to being able to be clothed with eternal life through the sacrifice of Jesus?

    Mortality of what?..Mortality of our fleshly body is swallowed up of life. Not by giving us a new body but making the body we have immortal. 

    READ this again,

    35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

    Jesus was not given eternal life until he had been perfected through facing death. God’s plan, what He had sown in Christ, had to die before it could be quickened/ given eternal life.

    37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    This is telling us specifically that our seed doesn’t change into a different seed, the seed that is sown does not become some other grain, that same seed is brought to glory. God gave each seed it’s own glory. The glory of a human being is that human beings are given eternal life. The Son of a Man/HUMAN BEING has been given eternal life.

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Jesus is still a man! There is but one flesh to man, he has his own unique seed, the seed doesn’t change into a different kind of seed, that SAME SEED is given GLORY.

    The seed that was sown, the human body was sown in corruption, that same seed is raised in incorruption. The seed that was sown, the human body was sown in dishonour, that same seed is RAISED IN glory. The body of Jesus was sown in weakness, that body was mortal, that same body was raised in power where mortality was swallowed up by life. That same SEED goes from mortal to eternal life. This is EXACTLY what we are being told, and that seed, the human body made of flesh with eternal life, is a spiritual body, it is a heavenly man, because the enemy death has been swallowed up. Death no longer has dominion, eternal life unites us where we are now able to follow God’s will having no temptation.

    Our SEED does not change into a different kind of seed, like that of a fish, or a bird, or a celestial being, just like when you sow a seed of a pumpkin and you water it, and tend to it, it doesn’t grow to be lettuce.  God’s plan from the beginning was to bring HUMAN BEINGS into glory, into eternal life. His plan was for the unique SEED of MAN to grow into righteousness and faith and be given eternal life. 

    #834741
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Jodi,

    Yes a seed is planted in the earth from which a far larger and more glorious plant grows.

    But you will remain a single seed?

    1cor 15

    You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;

    and that which you sow, you do not sow the body day which is to be,

    but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or something else.

    But God gives it a body, just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of it’s own.

     

    #834763
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Jodi,

    If God did not decide to keep you safe you have every reason to worry about injury to your brain.

    Only He keeps us safe from the malicious damage caused by the activities of the evil one,

    #834765
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,434

    Nick….What Jodi posted is right, our bodies after death ARE regenerated by God, and we again become a living soul, it will be a body just like Jesus was raised with, the same  body that now has imortality.

    No scripture say we will be changed to a different “kind” of body,  but our exact same DNA body will have imortality and that is all that is changed, no scripture says the seed changes to a different kind of body it came from.  That your rendition of what Paul was saying.

    God made man just as it pleased him, the “little” difference between angels and us is we can die, but that will be elimated in the future, and we will be as the angels, that is to say we will have eternal life like they have. “For this mortal must put on imortality”.

    Peace and love to you and yours ………gene

     

     

     

    #834766
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Gene,

    Agreement with you does not define truth.

    Can you show me DNA written in the bible?

    If next t then put aside your worldly thoughts.

    #834767
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
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    Nick…..You simply are not understanding the truth, God has given us bodies as it pleased him,and he can and will perfect those bodies and give them eternal life just as he did Jesus.  You say dig deeper, but you have dug beyond the truth. JODI is 100% right, you seem to lack the truth on this subject. Thinking you have some spritual insite, but your wrong g again Nick.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #834768
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Gene,

    You cannot recognise truth because you have limited it to your own understanding.

    You must be born again. Be transformed by the renewal of your mind.

     

    Do not just cling to your understanding.

    #834769
     Jodi 
    Participant
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    Hi Anthony,

    Jesus was not JUST a MAN, he was UNLIKE any ordinary MAN, he BECAME CHRIST, the anointed man with God’s Spirit without measure, who bled from his human flesh, DYING FOR YOU!

    He wasn’t JUST a man, he was the PROMISED SEED that would come from the lineage of Abraham, who all nations would be blessed through.

    He is not JUST a man, like some ordinary man, He is our master, our mediator to our Creator, and through the power of our Creator’s Spirit he was appointed to be our savior and king of kings ruling over his father David’s throne for an eternity.

    He wasn’t JUST a man, he BECAME a perfect MAN through his suffering for YOU and for God. He was the only man to submit fully to our Creator’s will, a Creator who loves us and made us HUMANS of the red earth, in His image. 

    Jesus was able to overcome because of how our Creator designed the human brain. We are special creatures more intelligent than all other Creatures God had made.. If God was not working in us, having made us able to become like Him in His image, we would remain like a brute beast.

     

     

     

    #834771
     NickHassan 
    Participant
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    Hi Jodi,

    The design of the human brain gave no advantage to men.

    God can make sons of Abraham from these stones.

     

    It is all about the transforming abilities of our God by His Spirit.

    #834773
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
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    Nick…..what is the “Only” way, ” all the hairs of your head could be numbered” and stored, if not through YOUR DNA. Our DNA stores every feature of our bodies and from that we can be replicated at any time. So if our present bodies were completly destroyed it can be replicated exactly as it was before. The same works with a seed, the seed stores the exact plant DNA it came from and when planted it will reproduce it exactly the plant it came from. Not one ounce of defference. So it is with those that are resructed from the dead.

    You disdain for the human race will have to be dealt with, you hold it in descust, but GOD HOLD US IN GLORY AND HONOUR, AND HAS PUT “ALL” THING UNDER OUR FEET.  READ HEB. 2:6-11. maybe that will help you focus better brother.

    Mankind will always be mankind just as Jesus now is and will come the same way. He being a son of man will come with great power and glory, he told us. We are looking for the comming of the son of man , you on the other hand are looking for the comming of some other kind of creature it appears, another creature you have yet to describe to us.  I believe Jesus meant what he said, over 80 times in scripture, that he was a son of man, he also is a son of God, so are we also.

    You ask us to dig deeper but you do not produce scripture to back up your so-called deeper understandings.  We produce scriptures, where is your scriptures at?

     

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……..gene

    #834775
     Jodi 
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    • Total replies 1,375

    Nick,

    What do you think it is that He is transforming with His Spirit? It is our mind, which exists in our brains.

    1 Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

    carnal    Sarkikos

    fleshly, carnal
    having the nature of flesh, i.e. under the control of the animal appetites
    governed by mere human nature not by the Spirit of God
    having its seat in the animal nature or aroused by the animal nature
    human: with the included idea of depravity
    pertaining to the flesh
    to the body: related to birth, linage, etc

    Nick you are not listening to the word of God and what it tells you,

    Read through this passage carefully,

    Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    Through the imagination of men, their foolish heart was darkened, and changed the truth of God into a LIE. Men have created false gods through their own imagination and it brought darkness. We do not follow the imagination of wicked invisible Spirits, our brains have the ability to imagine and create lies. The devil/slanderer is MAN. This passage is telling us this clearly.

    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding,

    They did not retain God in their knowledge, He gave them over to a reprobate mind, the carnal mind as Paul speaks in 1 Corinthians 3. A mind that is under the control of our carnal NATURE, that which ANIMALS are under the control of.

    Bears fight for territory, for food as do other earth creatures, including humans. But unlike other creatures that God created on earth, He made us in His image, He gave us brains that are highly more suffocated and intelligent, He gave us the ability for our brains to acquire the fruits of His Spirit,

    Galatians 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

    2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

    Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    Natural Phusikos

    1. produced by nature, inborn
    2. agreeable to nature
    3. governed by (the instincts of) nature

    Brute  Alogos

    1. destitute of reason
    2. contrary to reason, absurd

    Beasts  Zoon

    1. a living being
    2. an animal, brute, beast

    Men LIE, they speak what they do not understand because they are ignorant like a natural brute beast.

    We are BORN ignorant creatures, but through God’s Spirit He can transform our brains from a carnal mind, like that of ANIMALS to a mind that is spiritual being LED by God through receiving Wisdom, understanding, and knowledge.

    Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.

    Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. 27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. 29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, 30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. 33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

    The Pharisees are BLIND, they are IGNORANT, they are as SERPENTS, of the carnal mind, like a NATURAL BRUTE BEASTS. They lead others astray by their own imaginations from WITHIN they are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. They are of the OLD SERPENT, changing the truth of God and the truth of His way into a LIE.

     

    #834778
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Hi All,

     

    1 Cor 15: 35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain (seed), it may chance of wheat, or of some other (seed): 37 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    2 Cor 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Me: There are two seeds mentioned in the scripture above, the seed of the flesh and the seed of the spirit. The body of the flesh grows from the seed of the flesh. The body of the spirit grows in heaven above from the seed of the holy spirit. This body is reserved in heaven for us according to our good works. We receive our new bodies as crowns of righteousness when Christ returns. This is when the kingdom of earth becomes the kingdom of God which includes his saints. Our human spirits, hearts, and bodies will dissolve. We will have a new human heart compliant with Christ, the holy spirit in our spirit mind, and a body of the holy spirit and not of our flesh. The new in the image of the old will be holy, the old will dissolve.

    1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

    Me: Again, who is “we” in verse 52? I believe it is the image that is changed from the corruptible to the incorruptible and not the corruptible man to the incorruptible flesh.

    The seed comes from the heart and mind. It is transmitted through the spirit. The seed of David is from the heart and mind of David. A seed springs from its source. Christ had the seed of David in him.  He did not have the inherited flesh and human spirit of sin and death from David.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

    Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

    Me: Christ did not have sin or death in his flesh and was not weak to withstanding sin like we are. Christ did not have exactly the same human flesh as we have.

    Gen 6:2 That the sons of God (angels) saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Me: The point here is not to go into Genesis 6 and what exactly it meant. The point is that human flesh does not need to be like most humans have now. Christ was made in the likeness of our flesh. Christ was made in the likeness of sinful flesh. whether our flesh has sin or not in it, and it does have sin because of Adam’s trespass. Christ did not have flesh exactly like ours. He is the second Adam first of the flesh and then of the spirit.

     

    #834779
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
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    Hi All,

     

    New American Standard Bible
    Numbers 14:18 The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.’

    Me: Future generations can feel sins of the fathers as if they had sinned.

    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Me: Future generations can feel the wrath of God for what they have done and what the perpetrators of their pass persecutors have done as if they had done it all.

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou (Adam=mankind) shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, on which basis all have sinned:

    Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Me: death was passed on to future generations as if they had committed Adam’s trespass. Thus we are sinners when we are conceived.  

    #834780
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 5
    • Total replies 445

    Hi All,

     

    American Standard Version
    John 6:63 It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

    Roma 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

    The resulting death from sin is what we inherit in our bodies.  This body is not the same body of the flesh that was of Christ.

    Human spirit

    Adam and Eve had a higher spirit before they trespassed. They died to that spirit in their spirit minds. So has all the posterity been dead ( Matt 8:22, Luke 9:60).

    The human spirit is death because of unrighteousness. If it is not everlasting, it is considered dead. The human spirit dies. It is corruptible. The human body is corruptible. Both perish.

    Matt 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

    Me: As the holy spirit is new and different in substance from our human spirits, so are our new bodies different in substance from our old.
    Bodies different in substance than our old.

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