Preexistence (Part 2)

This topic contains 7,833 replies, has 49 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 1 hour, 30 minutes ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #832128
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    Hi Anthony,

    Why are you confused?

    Do you not believe he was a man conceived in Mary?

    Do you not believe he fully obeyed the Law of faith, not just works, and was cleansed by it?

    Do you not believe the Law was fair and effective ?

     

    Or do you really believe he was a god who did not need to be cleansed?

    #832129
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    Hi Anthony,

    The CURSE OF ADAM.?

    You mean the ORIGINAL SIN idea of Catholicism?

    #832130
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,380

    Anthony , yes no man can be justified by works (of law) not by the works of “the law. That another trinitarian corruption of scriptures, just check it ou from ORIGINAL Greek translation.

    What you have to understand is the way “law” works, it works through “forced compliance” much like our speed laws work, it you violate them you are punished, that how law works, but even though you obey them because of the fear of the consequences for breaking them, that does not make you heart right now does it. Ex 20:20, ‘the fear of him be before your eyes ‘that you sin not”. Get it old covenant law worked that way, but the new covenant works different, “i shall take out of you the stony (hard) heart and give you a heart of flesh (soft heart).

    That is why we are not justified (made right in the eyes of God), by the way (law works).

    “And now father glorify me in you presence with the glory i had with you before the world began”

    Jesus had that “prophecied” glory even before the creation of the world, it was GOD THE FATHERS intention right from the start of creation.

    ROM 8:29-30….For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed tp the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn (into the kingdom of God) among (MANY) brethern.
    30…, Moreover whom he did predestinate, them also he called: and whom he called, themhe also justified: and whom he justified, them he also (GLORIFIED).

    God the Father (Glorified) Jesus, he also will (Glorify) us also.

    Anthony you haven’t a clue what you are saying here, YOU HAVE BOUGHT INTO THE BIGGEST LIE EVER TOLD.

    BY THE WAY, the Gnostic’s “at the time of JESUS, TAUGHT T H E SAME MESSAGE YOU ARE NOW TEACHIN, GO look it up, i am not taking about modern Gnostic’s of today. but those at the time of the apostles John and Paul. Check it out for your self , the teach exactly what you people teach today. The taught of a preexistent JESUS AS A GOD M WHO CAMR FROM THE PELORA OF THE GOD’S.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …gene

    #832131
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    Hi Anthony,

    Adam obeyed the serpent, the dragon, the devil, Satan…the god of this world and the whole world now is under the evil one.

    But Jesus never gave way to lusts and he never sinned proving the effectiveness of the Law given by God.

    Then he was given discernment and empowered to overcome the evil one at the Jordan.

    #832133
     The Word’s Watchman 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 13

    I can make this easy for anyone who can read. If one finds themselves having to be creative in explaining a supposed foundational truth while sacrificing the integrity of the scope of the Word, then one should definitely check their doctrine.

    It’s this simple. Jesus has a God! He is the Word of God made flesh (John 1:14, 1 John 1:2). God’s Word existed with God in the Mind of God before the world began (1 Peter 1:20-21). We too are God’s Word in the flesh (2 Corin. 3:2) and have all existed in the Mind of God in His foreknowledge (Rom 8:29-30, Eph 1:5,11). Jesus is not just a man, but the Son of the Living God. You are not just a man but a Son of God too if you believe God raised Jesus from the dead. He is our brother. All things have been put under the authority of Jesus just like it was with Adam. In the end we’ll all get to be with the Father and Son, with God on the throne and His Son on His Right hand (Rev. 3:21). Praise and glory to the Father.

    John 20:17  Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Ephesians 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    2 Corinthians 11:31  The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

    1 Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Revelation 3:12  Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

    #832139
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    welcome WW.

    #832141
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    Hi Anthony,

    Jesus was not adopted but was born a natural son of God.

    Neither did he become God as the heresy teaches but became a Spiritual Son of God.

    Stop looking for heretics and listen to what the Spirit says.

    #832142
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,380

    WW….GOOD POST, WELCOME.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #832143
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    Hi WW,

    Even demons believe and tremble

    What we believe should lead us to obey his commands.

     

    Why do you call me LORD LORD and not do what I say?

    He commanded that we be reborn of water and the Spirit which echoes Peter’s words at Pentecost.

     

    #832150
     Ed J 
    Participant
    • Topics started 155
    • Total replies 27,956

    Hi The Word’s Watchman,

    Glad you are here~!

    ____________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #832153
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 511

    Hi everyone                                        And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” 1 Timothy 3:16 – Webster’s Translation

    Even if we go with the translation, “He was manifested in the flesh” in 1 Timothy 3:16, the view is still untenable. For who is the “HE” who pre-existed to manifest
    Himself in the flesh? Someone clearly had to exist as a “He” before “he was manifested in the flesh.”

    And again Heb. 2:14 says, “Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity” to be made “fully human in every way (Heb. 2:17 – NIV).”

    Who then is the HE who SHARED IN OUR HUMANITY to be made “fully human in every way” (Heb. 2:17 – NIV)? Someone clearly had to exist as a “he” before being made “fully human in every way.” When we carefully read all of the words of inspired scripture we find that Jesus Christ had to have existed before his virgin conception and birth.

    Jesus himself clearly stated that he existed both before and during the time of Abraham as recorded in John 8:57-59.

    “57Then the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?’ 58 Truly, truly, I tell you, Jesus declared, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ 59At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and slipped away from the temple area.…”

    When Jesus was asked, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you SEEN ABRAHAM?” Jesus replied, “Before Abraham was born, I AM.” Jesus did not say, “Before Abraham was born, I was” as if he was created before Abraham. By saying, “before Abraham was born, I am” in the context of John 8, Jesus affirmed that he always pre-existed as the timeless God of Exodus 3:14. For if Jesus meant the same thing as saying, “I am Jesus the Messiah,” then why would the Jewish Pharisees have “picked up stones to throw at him?”

    The Pharisees knew that Jesus had used “I AM” in the same manner that God the Father used “I AM” in Exodus 3:14. That is why they picked up stones to kill him.

    “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you.’” Exodus 3:14

    Benson’s Bible Commentary gives an accurate and thorough rendering of Exodus 3:14,

    “The Septuagint renders the words ειμι ο ων, I AM the existing Being, or HE WHO IS; and the Chaldee, I AM HE WHO IS, and WHO WILL BE. That is, I am He that enjoys an essential, independent, immutable, and necessary existence, He that IS, and WAS, and IS TO COME. It explains his name Jehovah, and signifies, 1st, That he is self- existent: he has his being of himself, and has no dependence on any other. And being self-existent, he cannot but be self-sufficient, and therefore all-sufficient, and the inexhaustible fountain of being and blessedness. 2d, That he is eternal and unchangeable: the same yesterday, to-day, and forever. For the words are with equal propriety rendered, I WILL BE WHAT I AM, or, I AM WHAT I WILL BE, or, I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE.”

    God did not tell Moses to say, “I AM GOD Almighty” which would have been grammatically accurate. God told Moses to say to the Israelites, “I AM has sent me to you” which implies a timeless existence. This is the equivalent of Jesus saying, “Before Abraham was born I AM” in John 8:58. For Jesus is the timeless great “I AM” of Abraham, Moses, and the prophets.

    “I AM” in Greek is “ego eimi.” Just as the English words, “I AM” can be used for individual people, so the Greek New Testament uses “ego eimi” for people saying “I AM” in the normal context of those words.

    For example, John 18:4-6 says, 

    “4Jesus, knowing all that was coming upon Him, stepped forward and asked them, ‘Who are you looking for?’ 5 ‘Jesus of Nazareth,’ they answered. Jesus said, ‘I am (ego eimi).’ And Judas His betrayer was standing there with them. 6When Jesus said, ‘I am,’ they drew back and fell to the ground.…”

    Even though Jesus said, “I AM” in the normative context of being the man who was raised in Nazareth, the soldiers “fell to the ground.” However, John 8:58 proves that Jesus did not use “ego eimi” in the normative context of a created human being. He used these words in the same context that God used in Exodus 3:14, “I AM that I AM … I AM has sent me to you.”

    Jesus never responded by saying that he did not see Abraham. Jesus’ response proves that he not only pre-existed to SEE ABRAHAM, he also pre-exited as the great “I AM” of eternity past (Exodus 3:14). This is why Heb. 1:8-12 proves that Jesus is the One who created the heavens and the earth as Yahweh God the Father before becoming a human son (see Heb. 1:10, Psalm 102:25, Heb. 3:3-4).

    “Great is the mystery of godliness”  Hebrews says that Jesus is “the exact likeness of the Father” when commenting on Hebrews 1:3. How can Jesus be “the EXACTLY LIKE THE FATHER” and not be that Father with us reproduced as a true man through the virgin? For the only true God the Father said in Isaiah 46:9, “I am God and there is none else, I AM GOD AND THERE IS NONE LIKE ME?” Since Jesus Christ is like God, He must be that “God with us” as a true man. Jodi do you affirm? that the indwelling Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ while claiming that Jesus is only a mere man. Yet how can a mere man be omnipresent like God and not be that God? No verse of scripture ever says that a created angelic being or created human being can be in more than one location at a time? Only the Most High God Himself “fills heaven and earth” (Jer. 23:24). Yet scripture proves that Jesus now “fills all things” according to Ephesians 4:10.

    “He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.” Ephesians 4:10 NASB

    Only God is the omnipresent Spirit who can hear and answer prayer, but Jesus said in John 14:13, “If you shall ask anything in my name I WILL DO IT.” How can Jesus hear and answer prayers as God if he is not the omnipresent Spirit who fills all things?

    Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice and another they will not follow.”
    How can all of God’s elect worldwide hear Jesus’ voice if He is not the omnipresent God who became a man to save us?

    The apostles believed that Christ was in them. “Christ in you the hope of glory (Col. 1:27).” Paul wrote “Christ lives in me” in Galatians 2:20. How can Christ live in His Church if He is not the Spirit of God?

    “You are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be THE SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST he is not His.” Romans 8:9 God bless more to come

    #832154
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 511

    Hi everyone

    by the way, there’s only one Spirit.

    “For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.” Matthew 18:20

    Wherefore, the scriptures prove that “the Spirit of Christ” is “the Spirit of God” as the omnipresent Spirit who indwells true New Testament believers. If Jesus is only a mere man, then how can you explain how Jesus can be in the midst of multiple congregations around the world all at once as the indwelling Spirit if he is only a man?

    Furthermore, how can God’s true Church be called “the bride of Christ” when the scriptures say we have only “One Husband?”

    “For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD (YHWH) of hosts (Isaiah 54:5).”

    “I betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2).”

    If Christ is not the only true “God manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit” (1 Tim. 3:16) then we have two Spirit Husbands. Yet Paul wrote that we have “ONE HUSBAND” as we will be presented “as a pure virgin to Christ.” That makes Jesus Yahweh God who came to save us as a man through the Hebrew virgin.

    “For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the LORD (YHWH) of hosts (Isaiah 54:5).”

    Hosea 2:19 and Jer. 31:32 also state that the only true God is our spiritual Husband.
    Arians believed (Jesus is an angel), Jodi believes (Jesus is just a man),and Trinitarians believes (Jesusis one of 3 Divine Persons) they cannot explain how the church is presented to “ONE HUSBAND” who is Jesus Christ because inspired scripture calls the only true God the Father our husband (“the LORD YHWH” is “your husband” – Isaiah 54:5).

    Can two or three divine persons be “one husband?” “I betrothed you to ONE HUSBAND, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ (2 Cor. 11:2).” Can a mere man replace God as our “ONE HUSBAND” while our Heavenly Father expressly said that He is our husband?

    Hebrews 1:3 and Hebrews 2:17 prove that the Spirit of God also became a true man by the Holy Spirit of the only true God descending upon the virgin (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:18-23).

    1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (NASB) says, “… our fathers WERE all under the CLOUD and all passed through the SEA; 2and all WERE BAPTIZED into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ATE the same SPIRITUAL FOOD; 4and all DRANK the same SPIRITUAL DRINK, for they WERE DRINKING from A SPIRITUAL ROCK WHICH FOLLOWED THEM, and the ROCK WAS CHRIST.”

    Paul clearly stated by inspiration that the Israelite fathers “WERE under the cloud” (the Spirit of God) “and all ATE the same SPIRITUAL FOOD.” And they all “WERE BAPTIZED in the cloud and in the sea” (they experienced a type of water and Spirit baptism), “and all DRANK” from the Spirit of God. “For they WERE DRINKING from a Spiritual Rock which FOLLOWED THEM, and the ROCK WAS CHRIST.”

    Notice that the text says that “they were drinking from a Spiritual Rock which FOLLOWED THEM.” Could the Israelites have not ate and drank from the same spiritual food and drink while the scriptures say that they did? Since inspired scripture says that “they were drinking from a Spiritual Rock which FOLLOWED them,” we know that the “spiritual rock” is not talking about the literal rock at Horeb. Could the literal rock at Horeb have “FOLLOWED THEM” in the wilderness? Do literal rocks follow people?

    We know that “the cloud by day and fire by night” followed the Israelites which clearly speaks of the Spirit of God which “WAS CHRIST” before his birth at Bethlehem. Thus the Holy Spirit of the only true God the Father also became a man within the Hebrew virgin. For 2 Peter 1:21 says the Holy Spirit was in the prophets but 1 Peter 1:11 identifies that Spirit as “the Spirit of Christ” “in them” (in the prophets).

    1 Corinthians 10:9 then says, “We should not test Christ (the Greek text says “Christos”), as some of them did–and were killed by snakes.”

    Inspired scripture says that some of the Israelites did “test Christ.” For the words, “as some of them DID” could not somehow be interpreted to mean that they did not “test Christ.” How could some of the Israelites have tested Christ if Christ did not pre-exist as the Holy Spirit of the only true God who “followed them” (the Israelite fathers) in the wilderness?

    Our Heavenly Father is repeatedly spoken of in scripture as being the Israelites Rock.

    Psalm 18:2 says, “The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer, My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge; My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.”

    Deuteronomy 32:18, “You neglected the Rock who begot you, And forgot the God who gave you birth.”

    Psalm 18:31, “For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God,”

    Psalm 18:46, “The LORD lives, and blessed be my rock; And exalted be the God of my salvation,”

    Psalm 19:14, “Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer.”

    Psalm 28:1, “A Psalm of David. To You, O LORD, I call; My rock,”

    The LORD (YAHWEH) is repeatedly addressed as the Israelites Rock (“my rock” and “our rock”). When the apostles identified Christ as the Spiritual Rock of the Israelites, they proved that Jesus Christ pre-existed his virgin conception and birth as Yahweh the Spirit of our Heavenly Father.

    Heb.1:2 says that God did not speak to the Israelites through “a son” until these “last days” because Jesus pre-existed his birth as God “the Spiritual Rock that FOLLOWED THEM” before becoming a son. Since the literal rock at Horeb did not “follow them” (the Israelites), nor supply spiritual drink (“they drank from that spiritual rock that followed them and that rock was Christ”), we know that Jesus pre-existed his birth as a child born and son given as the Spirit of God who followed the Israelites in the wilderness who “was Christ.” Therefore we know that the Spiritual Rock that followed the Israelites “was Christ” as God before becoming a human son.

    Some have admitted that Jesus Christ is the indwelling Holy Spirit, they now have to explain how a mere man can now “fill all things” as the Holy Spirit of the Father without violating Isaiah 42:8 and Isaiah 46:9.

    “I am Yahweh, that is My Name, and My glory will I not give to another.”

    “I am God and there is none else, I am God and there is NONE LIKE ME.”

    How can Jesus be like God in being the omnipresent Spirit who “fills all things” (Gal. 4:6, Romans 8:9, Ephes. 4:10) and hears and answers prayer (John 14:13) if he is only a mere man?

    John 5:23 says that all men should “honour the Son EVEN AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER.” If Jesus is just a man with no pre-existence as God, how then can we honour the Son “even as” we “honour the Father” without committing idolatry?

    John 10:37 clearly affirms that Jesus does the works of the Father. Since “there is none like” God he must be that God who came to save us as a true man. Hence, Jesus Christ is Immanuel, “God with us” manifested as a human “child born” and “son given.” God bless. In Him and Him in me  Anthony

    #832157
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 511

    Hi Nick  you say that the Son wasn’t adopted by God. Well your doctorine says otherwise you say that The only begotten Son was just a man and He got anointed at His baptism, just like we do. So apparently you don’t belive that theGod send Him How else could He take away the sins of the world if He wasn’t Adopted according to your doctorine. Like the gnostic believed that He was just a man adopt at His baptism. Apparently you don’t belive that God send Him that would be saying  Jesus Christ pre-existed.

    Nick you believe  like early Jewish christian believed and the Gnostic

    They believed the same way you do about Jesus Christ:

    Adoptionism claims that, before His adoption, (at His baptism)  Jesus was a mere man, although sinless. However, we know, biblically, that all men are under the curse of Adam and there are no sinless men. Romans 5:12-14 Further, no man can be justified by works of the Law Nick if He was just a man He would have sin but He didn’t. God bless

    #832158
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 511

    Hi Nick. This may help

    Gnostcism is/was the teaching that tried to reduce Christianity to a philosophy. The Gnostics claimed they had secret and superior knowledge. It generally taught that matter was evil and that the God of the Bible is a lower god called the Demiurge. The Absolute Supreme Being is unknowable. Jesus could not be God in flesh because matter is evil. Therefore, Jesus became the Christ when the “heavenly Christ” came upon Him at His baptism.

    #832159
     Anthony 
    Participant
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 511

    Hi Nick this may help

    Gnostic: Docetists said that the flesh and the divine cannot mix, therefore Jesus was truly God but only in the form of a human being. Gnosticism offered two traditional answers to the question . . . Adoptionist Gnostics said Jesus was a regular man, but when he was baptized by John a divine power descended on him and he was “adopted” as the Son of God. And Valentinian Gnostics accepted the idea of Jesus being truly human and truly divine, but argued that there were actually two persons residing in the same body, a human person and a divine person . . . and when Jesus died it was only his physical nature that was crucified, while his divine person lived on.

Viewing 15 posts - 7,636 through 7,650 (of 7,834 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account