Preexistence (Part 2)

This topic contains 8,157 replies, has 49 voices, and was last updated by  Anthony 14 hours, 29 minutes ago.

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  • #225986
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,09:51)
    It is Jesus’ glory and not Jesus which John 17:5 states that exists in God’s presence in the beginning just as in my example it is my present and not me that is in my mother’s presence before I am born.


    Listen to you guys.  Jesus clearly says “I HAD” glory “IN YOUR PRESENCE”.

    What does the “I HAD” part mean guys?

    Kerwin, what you're saying in your example is that YOU HAD a present that was with your mom before you were born.  It might have been a present she would eventually give to you, but YOU HAD nothing before there was a YOU to have it.

    And besides, now you're changing it to say that “the present I HAD in your presence” really means “the present itself was in your presence”.  Wouldn't you then say, “Give me the present THAT WAS in your presence”?  You wouldn't use “I HAD” at all in a sentence talking about a present that was in your mom's presence before you were born, would you?

    Maybe I'm just not seeing it.  Post the sentence start to finish including the word “I HAD” but meaning only the present alone was in you mom's presence before you were born.

    The best I can come up with is this:

    Give me the present that has been waiting in your presence for me since before I was born.

    Is that what you mean Kerwin?  Because if it is, that's not even close to the wording of the scripture.  The “I HAD” must become a “THAT HAS BEEN”, and we must also add the words “waiting for me”.

    You try……..maybe I'll understand when I see how YOU word it.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #225987
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike………..That simply means it was His before he ever was born, He (HAD) It in the Plan and will of God. Trying to force the text is one of your greatest problems here, it is the same problem all Preexistences have which they recieved from the Trinitarians teachings. You need to let it go and maybe God will allow you to see clearly the error of you beliefs. Grabbing Straw and forcing them into your beliefs hardly makes for truth, and only serves to further blind you and others. IMO

    peace and love………………………………gene

    #225989
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,09:51)
    It is Jesus’ glory and not Jesus which John 17:5 states that exists in God’s presence in the beginning just as in my example it is my present and not me that is in my mother’s presence before I am born.


    Kerwin …………. You have presented it correctly brother. Mike is so egger to force his conclusion he can't even realize it. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours……………………….gene

    #225996
     kerwin 
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    Mike Boll,

    The original purpose of a baby shower was to give a child gifts before the child is born. They are the child’s gifts even though it is possible the child will not live to personally receive them. God has the advantage over human beings that he can give someone a gift before they exist with certain knowledge they will receive that gift. Any gift is given in the presence of the giver.

    #226000
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Nov. 22 2010,10:31)
    Mike………..That simply means it was His before he ever was born, He (HAD) It in the Plan and will of God. Trying to force the text is one of your greatest problems here,


    Really Gene?  Oh no you dit'ent! :D

    Did you REALLY just FORCE the text by saying a non-existent thought in someone's head POSSESSED something as “his own” – and then follow up that FORCED meaning which doesn't even fit into the words with an accusation about ME forcing the text?!?  :D

    Too funny man!  :laugh:

    peace and love,
    mike

    #226003
     terraricca 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,17:07)
    Pierre,

    I am not stating that human’s cannot do good.  I am stating that the nature of human beings is evil.  Jesus stated that very point in one of his teachings on praying with faith.

    Matthew 7:11(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    As I already pointed out, in order to be tempted as Jesus was he had to have evil desires according to what God spoke through James.  Even though Jesus had the same evil desires we have he always resisted the devil and the devil always fled because Jesus trusted in God to keep him pure.  He teaches us through the Holy Spirit how to do that as well.


    Kerwin

    you can shake hands with Gene;

    Mt 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
    Mt 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
    Mt 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    Ask, Seek, Knock

    7:7-11 pp—;Lk 11:9-13

    Mt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
    Mt 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
    Mt 7:9 “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
    Mt 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
    Mt 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    Christ is talking to the pharisees and the doctors of the law,

    you have to grasp the meaning of what is true,not your own opinion of scriptures.

    pierre

    #226005
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,11:31)
    They are the child’s gifts even though it is possible the child will not live to personally receive them.


    Hi Kerwin,  

    I disagree.  And I think you would also 100 times out of 100 if we used the same words in secular situations.  The gifts in your scenario are bought for a living breathing fetus, so it is already a life.

    Let's say your wife has a ring that she wants to give to your great-great-great-great grandaughter who won't be born for another 60 years.  

    1.  Does this non-existent “thought” in your wife's head actually POSSESS this ring at this time?

    2.  In 78 years from now, can this great-great-great-great grandaughter say, “Give me the ring I HAD IN YOUR PRESENCE 78 YEARS AGO, because I'm 18 and I'm getting married”?  

    You must answer YES to #1 in order to answer YES to #2 Kerwin.  Do you understand that?  You have to be able to say that a non-existent thought can OWN a POSSESSION with a straight face in order for this to work into #2.

    Now let's change this “ring” to an abstract thing like “glory”.  Let's say somehow your wife KNEW that this great-great-great-great grandaughter would be an Olympic champion and gain much glory through her exploits.  Can you logically say that this future glory is right now IN YOUR WIFE'S PRESENCE?  Like she could store the glory in a bag and keep it sitting beside her on the couch for 78 years or something.

    And when your great-great-great-great grandaughter receives a perfect 10 score for her balance beam routine in the Olympics, could she then call your wife on the phone and say, “Grandma, could you now give me the glory I already had in your presence 78 years ago – because I won and now I'm ready to POSSESS it – even though I have already “POSSESSED” it for 78 years – even though I'm only 18 years old”?

    I'll tell you what Kerwin.  If you and Gene think your understanding of John 17:5 is so logical, then it should be nothing for you to easily come up with a logically worded example in which the same basic words would mean the same basic thing in an everyday life situation.

    Like, give me an example where someone has been “holding on to” someone else's glory for a while – waiting for the proper moment to give that glory to them.  And don't foget, when that proper time comes, the recipient must ask for the glory they ALREADY HAD in the presence of that person a long time ago.

    Can you do it?

    mike

    #226024
     terraricca 
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    Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 22 2010,19:04)

    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,17:07)
    Pierre,

    I am not stating that human’s cannot do good.  I am stating that the nature of human beings is evil.  Jesus stated that very point in one of his teachings on praying with faith.

    Matthew 7:11(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    As I already pointed out, in order to be tempted as Jesus was he had to have evil desires according to what God spoke through James.  Even though Jesus had the same evil desires we have he always resisted the devil and the devil always fled because Jesus trusted in God to keep him pure.  He teaches us through the Holy Spirit how to do that as well.


    Kerwin

    you can shake hands with Gene;

    Mt 7:4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
    Mt 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
    Mt 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

    Ask, Seek, Knock

    7:7-11 pp—;Lk 11:9-13

    Mt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
    Mt 7:8 For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
    Mt 7:9 “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
    Mt 7:10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
    Mt 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

    Christ is talking to the pharisees and the doctors of the law,

    you have to grasp the meaning of what is true,not your own opinion of scriptures.

    pierre


    Kerwin

    how is it that a person has evil toughts?
    wen he is a baby??
    wen he is teen??

    wen he is adult ??

    are those enbeded in him ??

    is it something you persue and obtain??

    WERE IS THAT SCRIPTURE YOU SAY IN JAMES??

    Pierre

    #226035
     kerwin 
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    Pierre,

    The scripture which states why humans are tempted is James 1:14. If an individual has a human nature then they have evil thoughts no matter their stage of development. The only exception being is if they have no thoughts. Accountability is another thing.

    #226036
     kerwin 
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    Mike Boll,

    You seem to forget that God unlike human beings are all knowing so while a woman does not know which great-great-great-great granddaughter yet non-conceived she has willed her ring to or even if she will have one God does.  He can even specify the child’s name and her ancestors clear back to the woman as well as the exact times and location of their births. That is why scripture states:

    Jeremiah 1:5(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    And also:

    Ephesians 1:4(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

    #226043
     gollamudi 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,23:18)
    Mike Boll,

    You seem to forget that God unlike human beings are all knowing so while a woman does not know which great-great-great-great granddaughter yet non-conceived she has willed her ring to or even if she will have one God does.  He can even specify the child’s name and her ancestors clear back to the woman as well as the exact times and location of their births. That is why scripture states:

    Jeremiah 1:5(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

    And also:

    Ephesians 1:4(NIV) reads:

    Quote

    For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—


    Good post brother Kerwin. Brother Mike thinks that God is like human being who can not know his great-great-great…..great grand children. God sees end from the beginning as our brother Gene quotes here. Concept of Messiah was formed in the councils of God before the foundations of the world even as per Jewish Talmud. Here it is a wonderful article I hope it may be useful to you-

    The Hebrew Mind and Preexistence:

    The importance of this topic cannot be overemphasized because the need to understand scripture from the CONTEXT in which it was written is a leading cause of the lack of understanding covered by this article. It is crucial for us to understand what was written from the context of those that wrote it, and from the times in which it was written. It is an irrefutable fact that nearly ALL the authors were Jews that thought, lived, and wrote entirely within a Hebraic framework. Therefore, it is critical to interpret the Bible within the proper context — and that task is just as relevant to the issue of preexistence as it is to anything else.

    The topic of “preexistence” is especially applicable to the book of John; however, it is also applicable to the entire New Testament writings. There is no better example of the tragic breakdown in communicating Jewish writings to the Western world than has occurred with the concept of “preexistence”. The typical understanding of John's writings is the result of a failure (in fact, premeditated misrepresentation) to properly describe the Hebraic concept of this crucial issue. In particular, the common Christian concept of the preexistence of the Messiah has been divorced from the purely Hebraic mind set of the New Testament authors. Two of the many catastrophic outcomes of abandoning this Judaic context are the Trinity and the belief that Yeshua is God. Many reject the Trinity yet still cling to the belief that Yeshua is “God” because of confusion over the question of preexistence At the very least, the book of John has been grossly misinterpreted because of the failure to apply the proper context to it's interpretation.

    We need only reference a single Hebraic source to clarify the issue. The clarity of the reference leaves no room for misunderstanding, and removes the veil of deceit so long used by the church to conceal the truth. Following is a quote from Everyman's Talmud — The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, by Abraham Cohen. It should be realized this is the GENERAL, STANDARD HEBRAIC understanding of this issue. This quote is on page 347 and is taken from the section which discusses the Messiah in the chapter on the “Hereafter.”

    The belief was general that the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the Universe. “Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e. Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah” (Pes. 54a). In a later work there is the observation: “From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created” (Pesikta Rab. 152b)

    So, here we see how the “preexistence” of the Messiah was understood by the Jewish mind. Remember that NEARLY ALL THE BIBLE'S WRITERS WERE JEWISH! The Messiah was “born” in the MIND (thought, motive, plan) of YEHOVAH God before creation but did NOT literally exist! The concept of a PHYSICAL literal preexistence is arrived at by most Christians only because they have unknowingly (or knowingly) abandoned the Jewish concept. We can't overemphasize this issue. It's importance is unequaled. IT MUST BE NOTED how the preexistence of the Messiah is defined in terms of his (the Messiah's) existence IN THE MIND OF YEHOVAH GOD the Father since before Creation. There is absolutely no literal preexistence assumed at all! Why? Because the Hebraic mind is so overwhelmed and awed by the magnificence, power, splendor, and infinite nature of YEHOVAH God that it assumes to “exist” whatever is in YEHOVAH's mind long before His “thought” actually physically manifests itself. The certainty of YEHOVAH's plan (thought) makes it as though the “thought” had already happened. YEHOVAH's intent or thought or motive or plan is so certain that it is said to “exist” despite its absence in the physical world! Obviously, since the “intent” or “plan” or “motive” of YEHOVAH God has always included the coming Messiah, the Hebraic mind assumes him (the Messiah) to have “existed” in the Mind of YEHOVAH since before creation! However, this “preexistence” was NOT considered literal or physical!

    This concept is corroborated by Paul in the New Testament. In Paul's epistle to the Church of YEHOVAH God in Rome we find the following:

    Romans 4:17: Just as it is written: “I have appointed you a father of many nations.” This was in the sight of the One in whom he had faith, even of God, who makes the dead alive and CALLS THE THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures).

    The phrase “calls the things that are not as though they were” has as its literal rendering, shown in the center column reference of the NASB, “calls the things which do not exist as existing”. The New King James Version renders this phrase as, “calls those things which do not exist as though they did,” These phrases present PRECISELY the same idea as the Hebraic concept just outlined. And no wonder, since Paul was a “Hebrew of Hebrews.” So, in his epistle, Paul provides STRONG evidence that supports the traditional Jewish meaning of preexistence in his description of YEHOVAH as a “God who … calls those things which do not exist as though they did.” Therefore, for those that wish proof from the New Testament, you now have it! Better yet, it comes from the very epistle — and the very apostle — Traditional Christianity exalts the most! For those of you that prefer the King James Version, it is even more clearly stated as:

    Romans 4:17: (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were (The King James Version, Cambridge: 1769).

    For full article please gothrough this link http://www.hope-of-israel.org/hebrew.html

    #226089
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,02:02)
    The topic of “preexistence” is especially applicable to the book of John; however, it is also applicable to the entire New Testament writings. There is no better example of the tragic breakdown in communicating Jewish writings to the Western world than has occurred with the concept of “preexistence”. The typical understanding of John's writings is the result of a failure (in fact, premeditated misrepresentation) to properly describe the Hebraic concept of this crucial issue. In particular, the common Christian concept of the preexistence of the Messiah has been divorced from the purely Hebraic mind set of the New Testament authors. Two of the many catastrophic outcomes of abandoning this Judaic context are the Trinity and the belief that Yeshua is God. Many reject the Trinity yet still cling to the belief that Yeshua is “God” because of confusion over the question of preexistence At the very least, the book of John has been grossly misinterpreted because of the failure to apply the proper context to it's interpretation.

    We need only reference a single Hebraic source to clarify the issue. The clarity of the reference leaves no room for misunderstanding, and removes the veil of deceit so long used by the church to conceal the truth. Following is a quote from Everyman's Talmud — The Major Teachings of the Rabbinic Sages, by Abraham Cohen. It should be realized this is the GENERAL, STANDARD HEBRAIC understanding of this issue. This quote is on page 347 and is taken from the section which discusses the Messiah in the chapter on the “Hereafter.”

    The belief was general that the sending of the Messiah was part of the Creator's plan at the inception of the Universe. “Seven things were created before the world was created: Torah, repentance, the Garden of Eden (i.e. Paradise), Gehinnom, the Throne of Glory, the Temple, and the name of the Messiah” (Pes. 54a). In a later work there is the observation: “From the beginning of the creation of the world king Messiah was born, for he entered the mind (of God) before even the world was created” (Pesikta Rab. 152b)

    So, here we see how the “preexistence” of the Messiah was understood by the Jewish mind. Remember that NEARLY ALL THE BIBLE'S WRITERS WERE JEWISH! The Messiah was “born” in the MIND (thought, motive, plan) of YEHOVAH God before creation but did NOT literally exist! The concept of a PHYSICAL literal preexistence is arrived at by most Christians only because they have unknowingly (or knowingly) abandoned the Jewish concept. We can't overemphasize this issue. It's importance is unequaled. IT MUST BE NOTED how the preexistence of the Messiah is defined in terms of his (the Messiah's) existence IN THE MIND OF YEHOVAH GOD the Father since before Creation. There is absolutely no literal preexistence assumed at all! Why? Because the Hebraic mind is so overwhelmed and awed by the magnificence, power, splendor, and infinite nature of YEHOVAH God that it assumes to “exist” whatever is in YEHOVAH's mind long before His “thought” actually physically manifests itself. The certainty of YEHOVAH's plan (thought) makes it as though the “thought” had already happened. YEHOVAH's intent or thought or motive or plan is so certain that it is said to “exist” despite its absence in the physical world! Obviously, since the “intent” or “plan” or “motive” of YEHOVAH God has always included the coming Messiah, the Hebraic mind assumes him (the Messiah) to have “existed” in the Mind of YEHOVAH since before creation! However, this “preexistence” was NOT considered literal or physical!


    Adam………..Good Post brother i totally agree with this portion of your post. People have no Idea of the Damage this Preexistence Doctrine does in the Minds of those who believe it how it separates us from Jesus in so many ways it totally distorts the work of GOD in mankind it is beyond a doubt the Spirit (intellect) of Antichrist that has infected all of Christendom. Martian has brought out much of what is written here also. IMO

    peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene

    #226096
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,02:02)
    Brother Mike thinks that God is like human being who can not know his great-great-great…..great grand children.


    Hi Adam,

    What gives?  First, you acknowledge that the NT is loaded with preexistent scriptures – and have even mentioned Micah 5:2.

    But now, you're changing your mind again?

    First, I don't think God is like a human being and it was thoughtless and assinine for you to make that claim.

    My point, which like many others will go unanswered by you, Kerwin and Gene is this:

    Now let's change this “ring” to an abstract thing like “glory”.  Let's say somehow your wife KNEW that this great-great-great-great grandaughter would be an Olympic champion and gain much glory through her exploits.  Can you logically say that this future glory is right now IN YOUR WIFE'S PRESENCE?  Like she could store the glory in a bag and keep it sitting beside her on the couch for 78 years or something?

    And when your great-great-great-great grandaughter receives a perfect 10 score for her balance beam routine in the Olympics, could she then call your wife on the phone and say, “Grandma, could you now give me the glory I already had in your presence 78 years ago – because I won and now I'm ready to POSSESS it – even though I have already “POSSESSED” it for 78 years – even though I'm only 18 years old”?

    Please answer the bolded parts guys.  You have ALL ignored the question and opted for diversions of “the lady isn't God”.

    1.  Yes, I KNOW the lady isn't God.  But in that situation, could you rationally say you HAD, or POSSESSED something years and years before you even existed as a being?  YES OR NO?

    2.  Further, in that situation, could this person claim that they POSSESED something IN THE OTHER'S PRESENCE years and years before they existed as a being?  YES OR NO?

    Adam, the source you posted uses the wording of one scripture to eliminate the 40 or so that clearly teach Jesus DID pre-exist.  And I cannot ask the author of the article any questions about those 40 scriptures, and that's why I rebelled when Martian kept wanting to post pages and pages of internet info and expecting me to read each one and answer to it.  

    One thing is clear however, he likes the thought of non-preexistence for one main reason – because the teaching of preexistence has led many to the false “Jesus is God” doctrine.  I agree with his concern, but there are many scriptures that can be used to destroy the trinity without mangling the ones that clearly teach the pre-existence of Jesus.  Just like Gene and Martian, this guy wants Jesus to not have pre-existed for his own personal reasons – not due to any scriptural teaching.  

    So Adam, does the NT teach pre-existence or not?  Make up your mind so I know where you stand.

    peace and love,
    mike

    #226110
     gollamudi 
    Member
    • Topics started 8
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    Yes brother Mike I still agree N.T talks about preexistence. But I am still open to somebody who can interpret such scriptures in the light of Jewish Monotheism. I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2 or Isa 11:1,10 on preexistence as it is purely Christian misinterpretation of Jewish scriptures.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam

    #226112
     terraricca 
    Participant
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    Quote (gollamudi @ Nov. 23 2010,20:47)
    Yes brother Mike I still agree N.T talks about preexistence. But I am still open to somebody who can interpret such scriptures in the light of Jewish Monotheism. I don't agree with you on Micah 5:2 or Isa 11:1,10 on preexistence as it is purely Christian misinterpretation of Jewish scriptures.

    Thanks and peace to you
    Adam


    Adam

    yea

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