One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism

This topic contains 218 replies, has 5 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 19 hours, 21 minutes ago.

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  • #835052
     Jodi 
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    HI TC,

    The promise was to anoint them with the Holy Spirit so they could be apostles, so they could speak in tongues, so they could prophecy. The promise they received was NOT the great promise that God gave to all of mankind before He created the world, which was the promise of eternal life.

    Genesis 9: 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

     

    Leviticus 17: 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul… 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

    Mortals have life through blood, Jesus rose having life through living water being in him,he is of flesh and bones, no longer blood of life but life of the water of the fountain of life.

    Genesis 9: 4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

     

    Leviticus 17: 11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul… 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

    Deuteronomy 12: 23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.

     

    1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    John 8:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

    Luke 24: 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

     

    YOU:You have no scripture to support your insane exigencies.

    ME:BIBLICAL FACTS

    FACT: Scripture says that mortals have LIFE through THEIR BLOOD (this makes sense since blood delivers oxygen and nutrients to keep our cells, our brain and our body alive, and many die when they lose too much blood, or when their blood has infirmities such as toxins in it)

    FACT: You cannot enter God’s kingdom having flesh and blood

    FACT: Jesus rose from the dead being given glory, being made incorruptible, and he rose with a flesh and bones body.

    FACT: You must be BORN of WATER and of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God. (born of water does NOT equate to a RITUAL being immersed in water after you have reached a repentant heart)

    FACT: Jesus said that THE WATER he will GIVE THEM will be IN THEM and spring up to eternal life. People will be BORN of water and of the Spirit, prior in their FIRST birth they were BORN of BLOOD.  

    #835053
     Jodi 
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    Hi TC,

    You need to look at more verses in chapter 5, as it does not fit at all with what you say. The hour was not at Pentecost, the hour is at the sound of the trumpet spoken of by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    The HOUR is coming when those that have done good unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of judgement. These are NOT the same hour we know, but the hour will come to EACH of these.

    The HOUR of receiving eternal life did not occur at Pentecost. At Pentecost men that were alive received gifts to become apostles, to speak in tongues, to give prophecy..etc. The DEAD did not rise up at Pentecost and hear the words of Christ and receive eternal life. ALL that are in the grave whether being good or bad will eventually hear his voice. THAT HOUR is COMING. 

    Daniel 2:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    CHRIST the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep, many will WAKE from the dust of the earth and receive eternal life.

    52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

    John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    John 8:5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

    TC being born of water and of the Spirit, does NOT equate to being dipped in water after repenting, it equates to WHEN you enter God’s kingdom receiving ETERNAL LIFE which does not occur until the last trumpet.

    TC Paul wished to not baptize anyone, as he said that is not why he became an apostle, he became an apostle to speak the words of God and declare the Gospel. If people believed in that Gospel and had faith in it they were counted as righteous and worthy to obtain eternal life. As the dead rise, IN THEM will come a well of water springing up into everlasting life. 

    17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them that believe.

    God knows your heart, you do not need to perform a ritual of dipping yourself in water to prove to God that you believe in the Gospel. It is written in your heart. It pleased God by the foolishness of PREACHING to SAVE them that believe.

    Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    You do not undergo a ritual of dipping yourself in water in order to be SAVED, with the heart and God knowing your heart you are. Not everyone who is saved receives a baptism of the Spirit and fire speaking tongues. Not everyone baptized with Christ’s baptism gives prophecy. Such gifts are according to the will of God.

    1 Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    TC Read these chapters that LEAD up to 1 Corinthians 15. People were baptized and given gifts and as chapter 13 tells us these gifts may cease, having charity is the greatest. We have faith, hope and charity. We are SAVED through our belief that is in our hearts and the greatest of our heart that shows we are of God is charity. This all leads up to Paul speaking of Christ in fact being raised from the dead and becoming the firstfruits of them that have died. Paul tells us that the dead shall be changed at the last trumpet they will receive eternal life. This is when they are BORN of the water and of the Spirit.

    Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

    NOT a baptism of WATER!

    Acts 2;1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    They were NOT BORN of water or born of the Spirit, they were baptized with fire and filled with the Spirit so they could speak in tongues. This was fulfilling the sign of Joel, where before Christ’s return people would be filled with God’s Spirit able to give prophesy.

    Acts 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    NOT whoever undergoes a WATER baptism, whoever shall CALL on the name of the LORD shall be saved, whoever hears the Gospel and believes shall be saved, he will RISE from the DEAD and be BORN of the water and of the Spirit receiving eternal life.

    Jesus’s baptism is NOT of water TC that was John’s baptism, the baptism of Jesus that came at Pentecost was with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE to people who were alive. Paul talks about this baptism in 1 Corinthians, and how gifts would CEASE that which they were baptized with would cease. No scripture speaks of them receiving some heart mind of Christ. They received gifts that could and did cease. Paul then tells us of the fate of those who believe in his Gospel, which is for the DEAD to rise receive eternal life when the trumpet sounds at the last day.  

     

     

    #835054
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi:

    You: The promise was to anoint them with the Holy Spirit so they could be apostles, so they could speak in tongues, so they could prophecy. The promise they received was NOT the great promise that God gave to all of mankind before He created the world, which was the promise of eternal life.

    Me: Not true.

    Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

    Me: They were waiting for the promise to be baptized with the holy spirit. As of consequent of this, they would receive power to understand the deep things of God.

    Matt 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

    Me: The apostles had not received of the spirit until John 20:22. Yet they understood more than the prophets who did have the holy spirit in them. Why is that? It is because the Word of God was teaching them through the human mind and heart of Christ in the holy spirit. Now the human element in the holy spirit communicated with the human minds of the apostles. This is powerful.

    New American Standard Bible

    Matt 23:8 “But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

    John 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

    John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Me. The spirit of truth comes from our heavenly father who is spirit. Christ inherits all things from his father, including truth. Our heavenly father then glorifies the Messiah by taking from him understanding and truth and shows it to us. This profound understanding happens from Pentecost forward.

    New American Standard Bible
    Luke 24:47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

    https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/12794/was-the-text-of-matthew-2819-changed

    Me: The main objective of receiving the holy spirit with power is to convert people to receive the baptism of the holy spirit after they had repented.

     
    1 Cor 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. 28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    Me: All of us have our unique gifts from the holy spirit. The promise of the holy spirit was the baptism of the holy spirit. The gifts of the holy spirit was a consequence of that baptism.

    Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh (Jews and gentiles): and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    Me: Emphasis in the parenthesis is mine The baptism of the spirit from Pentecost onward is for all flesh.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

    Me: The rest of the scriptures that you quoted about blood is true, but we are talking about the baptism of the holy spirit.

    #835056
     Jodi 
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    TC,

    John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest.

    We shall be like Jesus, we will be born of God and unable to commit sin.

    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

    In eternal life there exists no more bondage, no more fear, we are free from temptation, we are BORN of God no longer able to sin. There is nothing that draws us away to serving God’s will, no weak flesh, no carnal mind to fight against.

    Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

    Paul was considered a Son of God because he was going to be raised from the dead given a body free of death. He will be born of God of water and of the Spirit when he rises from the dead, he will no longer SERVE his flesh, be a slave to it, be under the dominion of the law of sin.

    He will no longer have a body born of BLOOD, Paul DIED with a body born of blood. He will rise being BORN again of water and of the Spirit. 

    John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

     

     

    #835057
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Why would we have a body reserved in heaven already before we die if our present one’s will be transformed? Please answer.

    You need desperately to reconcile Romans 6:4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 12:1 2 Cor 5:4, 6-9, John 5:25, John 11:23 with 1 Thes 4:13-16, which you have not done.  On the surface they seem to contradict.  

    Let’s see how you do.

    #835058
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi,

     

    I will get back to you later on your last post.  I usually reserve the weekends to post.  I will try to get back sooner than later

    #835069
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 9
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    Hi TC,

    Okay, I will know why a response might come later than sooner, understandable, thank you.

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    ME: As already shown through the rest of John 5, the HOUR represents both those who have done good and those evil, of which that hour is different for each and for those in Christ it is not at Pentecost but as Daniel and Paul tell us that the hour for those in Christ occurs at Christ’s second coming. The dead rise hearing the trumpet and receive life again, eternal life.

    You: The thief on the cross received the baptism of the holy spirit at Pentecost and not water baptism.

    ME: There is no account of the dead receiving anything at Pentecost. We do have direct scriptural accounts of the dead rising up and receiving eternal life when Christ returns. I am going to stick with that!

    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    You: The thief on the cross called out to Christ to save him, just like we do when we are baptized in water. He was not baptized with water.  The OT saints were not baptized with water as symbolic of the actual baptism of the spirit.  Why?  Because Christ has not yet died.

    ME: Punctuation is added in by the translator, moving a comma makes the passage entirely different, not only that but it establishes what other passages say.

    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him,Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    This makes a lot more sense, how is it that he would be in paradise with Jesus on the day he was crucified? Pentecost certainly did not come on the day Jesus was crucified? What you are saying doesn’t even line up with itself, let alone scripture.

    Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

     

    Genesis 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

     

    Revelation 22: 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    People who overcome have the right to the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God, they enter into paradise when they rise from the dead and receive eternal life.

     

    #835148
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Jodi

    You:
    As already shown through the rest of John 5, the HOUR represents both those who have done good and those evil, of which that hour is different for each and for those in Christ it is not at Pentecost but as Daniel and Paul tell us that the hour for those in Christ occurs at Christ’s second coming. The dead rise hearing the trumpet and receive life again, eternal life.

    Me: John 5:25 and John 5:28 describes two different events.

    Event 1:

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    Me: Click on the link below: Then click on 5610 above “an hour”

    https://biblehub.com/greek/5610.htm

    hóra: a time or period, an hour
    Original Word: ὥρα, ας, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: hóra
    Phonetic Spelling: (ho’-rah)
    Definition: a time or period, an hour
    Usage: (a) a definite space of time, a season, (b) an hour, (c) the particular time for anything

    Me: 5610. hóra can mean a period of time. As we will see “today’ in Luke 23:43 can also mean a period of time and does here.

    An Hour means a short period of time and now means at the time of Christ’s glorification. So that hour is when the righteous dead from Genesis to Pentecost will awaken. These are only those that hear his voice at that time. These are those that receive the promise.

    Event 2

    John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Me: This pertains to the resurrection of the dead after the millennium. The dead in Christ never die.

    John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Me: “shall never die” pertains to those faithful alive from Pentecost.

    http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/thief-on-cross

    From the author,
    Is the Comma Inspired?
    Is the punctuation in the Bible inspired? In the original Greek text of the New Testament there was no punctuation, in fact, there was no spacing between words. Here is a quote from the Greek language expert Michael W. Palmer. “The ancient Greeks did not have any equivalent to our modern device of punctuation. Sentence punctuation was invented several centuries after the time of Christ. The oldest copies of both the Greek New Testament and the Hebrew Old Testament are written with no punctuation.

    Me: So it is to the discretion of the scribe of the bible if and where he would put the comma.

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/today
    today adverb, noun

    Definition of Day:
    A1 (on) the present day:
    What’s the date today?
    He’s going to call you at some point today.
    Today is even hotter than yesterday!
    Is that today’s paper?
    He should be back today a week today (= one week from today).

    B2 used more generally to mean the present time:
    Today, people are much more concerned about their health than they were in the past.
    With today’s technology almost anything seems possible.
    The youth of today don’t know how lucky they are.

    Click on the link below in regards to Luke 23:43. Then click on blue 4592 to the right of “ to you, today”.

    Usage: today, now.

    Me: This reinforces the dictionary definitions just presented. Day can mean “now” which means the present time and not a literal 24 hour day.

    You quoted me with the parenthesis (at this time) in front of today: How can you then say I meant today.  What planet are you from.

    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today (at this time) shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    So in other words I take the translation as:

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, “at this time” shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    It makes more sense than to say:

    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Me: This doesn’t make sense at all.. Of course he was talking to the thief that very day. He didn’t need to say it. But  maybe the thief was stupid and didn’t realize that Christ was talking to him that day. Maybe he thought that Christ was actually talking to him at another day. Maybe they had drugged him prior, like they do on death row. Or maybe Christ had said something contrary at another day in the past. I’m just thinking of the possibilities of the absurdities of  placing the comma after “today”.

    You:
    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    As already shown through the rest of John 5, the HOUR represents both those who have done good and those evil, of which that hour is different for each and for those in Christ it is not at Pentecost but as Daniel and Paul tell us that the hour for those in Christ occurs at Christ’s second coming. The dead rise hearing the trumpet and receive life again, eternal life.

    Me: “Now is” is not 2,000 years later. Only those that hear at this time will be resurrected into life. These are all those saints that had died prior to Pentecost.

    Now look again at John 5:25

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Me: How can “the hour is coming” be the same as now is? It is because Christ was talking about the near future. Christ was also talking about the near future in Luke 23:42.
    This near future was after he had resurrected from the dead and had ascended into heaven. Even with the comma before “today”, the Messiah wasn’t talking about that very day—how stupid.

    2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

    Me: 2 Cor 6:2 reinforces my argument that time is an alternative definition for day.

    #835149
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
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    Hi Jodi,

    When will Job rise from the dead?

    Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! 14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. 15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    Me: What “wrath” in verse 14 will and will not  transpire before job is resurrected from the grave?

    Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Me: Christ comes with his saints to administer wrath upon the nations after he returns with his saints already resurrected both in spirit and with new bodies. So what can wrath mean in Job 14:13? Let us look.

    Click on the link below. Then click on 639 above “your wrath”

    Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance
    angry, before, countenance, face, forbearing, forehead, longsuffering, nose,

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/job/14-13.htm

    Me: So instead of wrath used in Job 14:3, I propose that Job is addressing the death and resurrection of Christ from the dead. So Job hears Christ’s voice in John 5:25 and raises spiritually from the dead.   All the OT saints do likewise.

    #835151
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 566

    Hi Jodi,

    You:

    John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Me:
    Quote: “Beloved, now we are the sons of God”

    Now means at the present time or moment. We are not fully the sons of God now, but will be. We acquire new bodies at Christ’s coming.

    Quote: “It doth not yet arrear what we shall be”
    So we are called the sons of God before we acquire our new bodies.

    You:
    1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest.
    We shall be like Jesus, we will be born of God and unable to commit sin.

    Me:
    Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    Me: We have a choice, follow the holy spirit and not sin or follow the flesh.  Christians have two minds, one of the flesh and one of the spirit.

    You:
    9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
    14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
    In eternal life there exists no more bondage, no more fear, we are free from temptation, we are BORN of God no longer able to sin. There is nothing that draws us away to serving God’s will, no weak flesh, no carnal mind to fight against.
    Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    Paul was considered a Son of God because he was going to be raised from the dead given a body free of death. He will be born of God of water and of the Spirit when he rises from the dead, he will no longer SERVE his flesh, be a slave to it, be under the dominion of the law of sin.
    He will no longer have a body born of BLOOD, Paul DIED with a body born of blood. He will rise being BORN again of water and of the Spirit.
    John 4: 4 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall BE IN him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    Me:
    1 Peter1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:…23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the Word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

    Me: Who is the Word or spokesman of God? Is it not Christ? Are we not born again of the Word?

    Rev 19:11…And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True…13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Me: The Messiah is the Word or spokesman.

    John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (the Word) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Me: Click on the link below. Then click on 2532 above “and”.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/3-5.htm
    Definition
    and, even, also
    and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so

    So in other words, John 3:5 could easily be written as so:

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (the Word) even Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Me: The (the Word) in John 3:5 is my emphasis.

    John 7:39 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water, 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet_____ because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?xid=0QJAHVSGFW6HY
    THE MEANING OF JOHN 7:39When I was young, in my study of the Bible I was puzzled by John 7:39, which says, “But this He said concerning the Spirit, whom those who believed into Him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet glorified.” Why does John 7:39 say that the Spirit was not yet? He is mentioned over and over again in the Old Testament. For years this verse bothered me. I could see that the Spirit was not yet had something to do with Jesus’ being glorified, but this was only a hint of what was implied.
    One day when I was reading in Exodus 30, this verse in John became clear to me. I could see that prior to Exodus 30 the oil was there, but the anointing ointment “was not yet.”
    Philippians 1:19 speaks of the “bountiful supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ.” Was the Spirit of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament? No, for He “was not yet.” In the Old Testament there was the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jehovah. When Jesus was conceived, there was the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20). The Spirit of Jesus Christ, however, “was not yet.” When the Lord spoke those words in John 7, prophesying that His disciples would receive the Spirit, He had not yet been crucified and resurrected. It was only after these two events—the death and resurrection of Christ—occurred, that these two principal spices could be added to the plain oil. How great was His death! How great was His resurrection! Nothing like them had ever happened before.

    Me: Thus born of the water is born of the spirit with the crucifixion and resurrection in it. Paul was born of “water” now, not at the coming of Christ. We are born of water which equates with being baptized of the holy spirit.

    #835152
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 566

    Hi Jodi,

     

    Why would we have a body reserved in heaven already before we die if our present one’s will be transformed? Please answer.
    You need desperately to reconcile Romans 6:4, Gal 5:24, 2 Cor 12:1 2 Cor 5:4, 6-9, John 5:25, John 11:23 with 1 Thes 4:13-16, which you have not done. On the surface they seem to contradict.
    Let’s see how you do.

    #835154
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 566

    Hi Jodi,

     

    Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    https://biblehub.com/interlinear/psalms/8-5.htm

    Me: Click on the link about. Then click on 430 above “than the angels”.

    definition:

    elohim: God, god
    Original Word: אֱלהִים
    Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
    Transliteration: elohim
    Phonetic Spelling: (el-o-heem’)
    Definition: God, god

    Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    Me: So Christ was made a little lower than angels as a entity of the flesh and a little lower than God by his ascension into heaven.

    Christ did not have the same kind of Body we have. He had a body like ours but a little lower than angels. He could transfigure himself (Matt 17:1-2) and walk through walls(John 20:19). . He is now a little lower than God with a much glorified body (Rev 21:22-23, Rev 22:16)). We will have bodies that are like his (1 John 3:2), not like our present ones (Rev 22:16). The bodies we have now are of the seed of the devil as our father and the seed of the woman as our humanity. Christ paid the penalty to be the second Adam of a different body. We cannot be forgiven of the heritage that Adam passed down to us. Only Christ’s death could pay that. We cannot be of the body we have, Christ’s death paid for that. We die with him and are resurrected with him when we are baptized with the spirit. We receive our glorified bodies later that are like his.

     

    #835157
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,491

    Truthcomber. ….Jesus told the thief this,  “I TELL YOU THIS DAY, YOU “SHALL” BE WITH ME IN PARADISE,  he was speaking of another day, not that very day, because Jesus did not go to praise that day, he went to his grave that day, hardly what anyone would call paradise.  If you study with the decieved you will become decieved also, let the spirit teach you and you will see it clearly. There is no end of book that support every kind of false teaching  imaginable ,  trust in the LORD GOD, and he alone will guide your mind  by his SPIRIT, WHICH IS THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH.  There are many seducers out there, but John told us this.

    1John 2:27…..but the anointing which you have recieved of him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you: but the same anointing teaches you “ALL” THINGS , and is TRUTH, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in him.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #835161
     Truthcomber 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 566

    Gene,

     

    The whole point of my argument was that “day” in Luke 32:42 does not necessarily mean a 24 hour day but means a short period of time that could be years.  Now instead of addressing that issue, you come back and say that I say day means a literal day.

    #835163
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,594

    Hi Jodi,

    The book of Acts shows that those who believed were baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.

    Then hands were laid on to receive the Holy Spirit.

     

    Nothing has changed despite the protestations of the rebellious.

    Even demons believe.

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