JOHN 1:1

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  • #53255
     Not3in1 
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    Here is an alternative to the thread: John 1:1 “in defense of the NWT”

    As per David and other requests, let's use this thread to discuss topics not related to the NWT/JW's. In this way, we can keep the other thread open to those who hope to find information on the NWT and support of its interpretation.

    #53256
     Not3in1 
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    WJ – is it possible for you to transfer some of your posts over to this thread? I'm not sure how to do that yet? Thanks.

    #53258
     942767 
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    942767

    Group: Associate Member
    Posts: 558
    Joined: Sep. 2006  Posted: May 20 2007,03:22  

    ——————————————————————————–
    John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).

    The question here is what was the idea?  And it is explained in the following two verses.

    1:2
    The same was in the beginning with God.  
    1:3
    All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    (The idea was to make all that was made as described in Genesis record of the the creation with him(Jesus) in mind.)  Gen.1:26
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.  
    1:27
    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.  
    1:28
    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.  
    1:29
    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.  
    1:30
    And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life *, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.  
    1:31
    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    Col.  1:15
    Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  
    1:16
    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Hebrews 1      
    1:1
    God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,  
    1:2
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;  
    1:3
    Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had * by himself purged * our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;  

    John 1:4
    In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    15:45
    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit(live-giving).

    I hope that this helps.

    God Bless

    #53261
     942767 
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    Hi:

    I came across the following scripture and I thought it would help to support my viewpoint:

    Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. 10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. 11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do. 12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness. 13 I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

    God Bless

    #53265
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (942767 @ May 21 2007,04:30)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18)

    Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22)
    John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).

    The question here is what was the idea?  And it is explained in the following two verses.


    Hi 94,
    Strong's is not the bible.
    Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
    Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?


    Hi Nick:

    I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.

    If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.

    Obviously, you don't agree with my understanding on this, and so, if you understand it differently, give us your understanding.  I didn't say that I was right although I believe that I am otherwise I wouldn't be teaching this way, but if you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching is not correct, I will be happy to accept my correction.

    I know that Stong's is not in the bible, but many a time the definition of a word helps us to grasp the meaning of what is being said such as the name Abraham meaning “father of a multitude” for example.

    Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.

    God Bless


    94

    A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

    Heb

    10:
    5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    Compare with…

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

    Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”!

    Neither can a thought or plan be God!

    :O

    #53266
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,06:06)

    Quote (942767 @ May 21 2007,04:30)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18)

    Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22)
    John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).

    The question here is what was the idea?  And it is explained in the following two verses.


    Hi 94,
    Strong's is not the bible.
    Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
    Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?


    Hi Nick:

    I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.

    If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.

    Obviously, you don't agree with my understanding on this, and so, if you understand it differently, give us your understanding.  I didn't say that I was right although I believe that I am otherwise I wouldn't be teaching this way, but if you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching is not correct, I will be happy to accept my correction.

    I know that Stong's is not in the bible, but many a time the definition of a word helps us to grasp the meaning of what is being said such as the name Abraham meaning “father of a multitude” for example.

    Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.

    God Bless


    94

    A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

    Heb

    10:
    5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    Compare with…

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

    Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”!

    Neither can a thought or plan be God!

    :O


    Hi WJ:

    You say:

    A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

    True, but God began implementing his plan from the beginning creating all that is in the world with him in mind, and then,

    John 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Here he can reason to do the will of God, and the gospel of Luke gives us a glimpse of this saying,

    Luke 2:43
    And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.  
    2:44
    But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and * * acquaintance.  
    2:45
    And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.  
    2:46
    And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.  
    2:47
    And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.  
    2:48
    And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.  
    2:49
    And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I MUST BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS?  

    Hebrews 10:
    5 *WHEREFORE WHEN HE COMETH INTO THE WORLD(he said the following when he came into the world, and obviously that was not when he was an infant as what Luke shows us above was when Jesus was about 12 years of age)*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me(the ME here has to be the Word of God)*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    Then you ask me to compare the following scriptures:

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    All of the above makes reference to the Word of God that came from the Father to humanity through Jesus.  Jesus applied the Word of God to his life and became that “life-giving spirit.  He is the bread of life.

    You quote the following:

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*[/

    John 17:24
    Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; THAT THEY MAY BEHOLD MY GLORY, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (This verse explains what Jesus meant in John 17:5.  The “Glory” that Jesus had with the Father before the world was was a part of God's plan and was given to hi
    m at this time)

    You quote:

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*
    ;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    My response: (For the life was manifested) This is the same as I have already explained in the God's plan for eternal life was made manifest through the Lord Jesus.

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

    Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”! ( I don't understand your reasoning here.  Why can't a plan for eternal life be with God?)

    Neither can a thought or plan be God!(Neither do I understand your reasoning here.  The plan was to make man in his image and Jesus is the express image of his person.)

    I have given you my understanding of John 1:1f and I have to believe that this is correct.  

    God Bless

    #53267
     WorshippingJesus 
    Participant
    • Topics started 50
    • Total replies 12,309

    Quote (942767 @ May 25 2007,13:05)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 24 2007,06:06)

    Quote (942767 @ May 21 2007,04:30)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 20 2007,07:18)

    Quote (942767 @ May 20 2007,03:22)
    John 1      
    1:1
    In the beginning was the Word (Logos, from Strong's Concordance: “embodies a conception or idea” and the Word(Logos) was with God(these two parts of the verse just indicate that God had and idea or a plan), and the Word was God(and whatever the idea, it was Theos (God)).

    The question here is what was the idea?  And it is explained in the following two verses.


    Hi 94,
    Strong's is not the bible.
    Does any heavenly being have a body except the man from heaven?
    Is an 'embodied idea' still within the being or with that being?


    Hi Nick:

    I have given my understanding on this subject, and I have closed this with “I hope that this helps”.

    If it doesn't help you perhaps someone else will be helped by this.

    Obviously, you don't agree with my understanding on this, and so, if you understand it differently, give us your understanding.  I didn't say that I was right although I believe that I am otherwise I wouldn't be teaching this way, but if you can show me by the scriptures that what I am teaching is not correct, I will be happy to accept my correction.

    I know that Stong's is not in the bible, but many a time the definition of a word helps us to grasp the meaning of what is being said such as the name Abraham meaning “father of a multitude” for example.

    Anyway, I have given you my understanding maybe it will help someone.

    God Bless


    94

    A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

    Heb

    10:
    5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    Compare with…

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

    Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”!

    Neither can a thought or plan be God!

    :O


    Hi WJ:

    You say:

    A thought or a plan cannot reason to do the will of God!

    True, but God began implementing his plan from the beginning creating all that is in the world with him in mind, and then,

    John 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Here he can reason to do the will of God, and the gospel of Luke gives us a glimpse of this saying,

    Luke 2:43
    And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.  
    2:44
    But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and * * acquaintance.  
    2:45
    And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.  
    2:46
    And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.  
    2:47
    And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.  
    2:48
    And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.  
    2:49
    And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I MUST BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS?  

    Hebrews 10:
    5 *WHEREFORE WHEN HE COMETH INTO THE WORLD(he said the following when he came into the world, and obviously that was not when he was an infant as what Luke shows us above was when Jesus was about 12 years of age)*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me(the ME here has to be the Word of God)*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    Then you ask me to compare the following scriptures:

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    All of the above makes reference to the Word of God that came from the Father to humanity through Jesus.  Jesus applied the Word of God to his life and became that “life-giving spirit.  He is the bread of life.

    You quote the following:

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*[/

    John 17:24
    Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; THAT THEY MAY BEHOLD MY GLORY, WHICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME: for th
    ou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (This verse explains what Jesus meant in John 17:5.  The “Glory” that Jesus had with the Father before the world was was a part of God's plan and was given to him at this time)

    You quote:

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*
    ;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    My response: (For the life was manifested) This is the same as I have already explained in the God's plan for eternal life was made manifest through the Lord Jesus.

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

    Jesus the “Eternal Life” that was with the Father was not just some thought “in God”, for a thought or a plan cannot be “With God”! ( I don't understand your reasoning here.  Why can't a plan for eternal life be with God?)

    Neither can a thought or plan be God!(Neither do I understand your reasoning here.  The plan was to make man in his image and Jesus is the express image of his person.)

    I have given you my understanding of John 1:1f and I have to believe that this is correct.  

    God Bless


    94

    You say…

    Quote

    All of the above makes reference to the Word of God that came from the Father to humanity through Jesus.  Jesus applied the Word of God to his life and became that “life-giving spirit.  He is the bread of life.

    The problem you have with these scriptures is that Jesus did not say the Word came down from heaven, he said “I” came down from heaven.

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    Also…

    It is clear that the scriptures proclaim that Yeshua made the descision to come into the world before his body was prepared.

    10:
    5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    In my opinion you are grossely misinterpreting these scriptures in order to support your anti prexistant view of Yeshua before he took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    Jesus said plainly “I” came down from heaven, to do the will of the Father who sent him!

    IMO this is unambiguouos!

    :O

    #53268
     WorshippingJesus 
    Participant
    • Topics started 50
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    Posted: May 25 2007,13:59

    Hi WJ:

    You say:

    94

    You say…Quote  

    All of the above makes reference to the Word of God that came from the Father to humanity through Jesus.  Jesus applied the Word of God to his life and became that “life-giving spirit.  He is the bread of life.

    The problem you have with these scriptures is that Jesus did not say the Word came down from heaven, he said “I” came down from heaven.

    John 6:31
    Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.  
    6:32
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.  
    6:33
    For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    What in your opinion is “the bread of God”?

    #53269
     WorshippingJesus 
    Participant
    • Topics started 50
    • Total replies 12,309

    Quote (942767 @ May 25 2007,13:59)
    Hi WJ:

    You say:

    94

    You say…Quote  

    All of the above makes reference to the Word of God that came from the Father to humanity through Jesus.  Jesus applied the Word of God to his life and became that “life-giving spirit.  He is the bread of life.

    The problem you have with these scriptures is that Jesus did not say the Word came down from heaven, he said “I” came down from heaven.

    John 6:31
    Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.  
    6:32
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.  
    6:33
    For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    What in your opinion is “the bread of God”?


    94

    The bread of God is a person!

    6:33
    For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    Again, Jesus never gives any inclination anywhere in the scriptures that he was just a “thought or a plan” of God.

    He was with the Father in the begining.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    kai nun docason me su, pater, para seautw th doch h eixon (5707) pro tou ton kosmon einai (5750) para soi.

    eixon (to have, to hold) pro (before) tou ton (the) kosmon  (world) einai (was)

    And now, O Father, glorify (5657) thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had (5707) with thee before the world was (5750) .

    A thought or plan cannot hold or have the Glory of God before the world was. Not to mention you are saying the thought and plan is God!

    This is why John wrote the first chapter of John ascribing over 40 personal pronouns to Jesus the “Word”.

    Then John confirms who this “Word” that was with God and was God is…

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    I believe John ascribed the word “Logos” to Jesus because of his vision of the Apocalypse.

    Rev 19:13
    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word (Logos) of God*.

    Revelations was written around 70 AD whereas The Gospel of John was written around 80s or 90s. AD.

    94, please help me to understand how you interpret these scriptures different.

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    Not to mention Paul says…

    Col 1:17
    And *he is before all things*, and by him all things consist.

    This is not a thought or a plan! Its a “He”!

    ???

    #53270
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Not3in1 @ May 26 2007,05:11)
    This is not a thought or a plan! Its a “He”!
    ************************************

    Surely God knew his Son would be a “he.”  Interesting note here:  Men determine the sex of the child during conception (they carry the gene for girl/boy).

    I've answered a lot of these scriptures given in the conception thread and others.  I won't bother going through them again.  Suffice it to say that these scriptures given by WJ can have other implications.  How you interpret them depends on which priori you come to the scriptures with.


    Not3

    The problem you have is there is nothing in these scriptures that indicate he “”would be”, it is very plain that he “was and is”!

    Col 1:17 KJV
    *And he is before all things, and by him all things consist*.

    NLT
    *He existed before everything else began, and he holds all creation together. *

    Heb 10:
    5 *Wherefore when he cometh into the world*, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, *but a body hast thou prepared me*:
    6 In burnt offerings and [sacrifices] for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
    7 Then said I, Lo, *I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God*.

    9 Then said he, *Lo, I come to do thy will, O God*.

    Compare with…

    Jn 6:38
    For *I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will*, but the will of him that sent me.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    6:58
    This is that bread which *came down from heaven*: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

    Jn 17:5
    And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which *I had with thee before the world was*.

    1 Jn 1:1,2
    That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the *Word of life*;
    (For the *life was manifested* (not a thought or a plan), and we have seen , and bear witness, and shew unto you that *eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

    Jn 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God*, and the *Word was God*.

    You claim to accept the scriptures as they are without reading into them, yet you try to force your anti-prexistent view on these scriptures.

    Maybe you could break them down and give me your understanding of them.

    Because I do not believe Jesus and the Apostles meant what you and 94 and AP and martian and Unisage believe about Yeshua as a thought or plan, and none of you have presented any credible evidence to this fact.

    Blessings!  :)

    #53271
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,09:38)
    Hi WJ:

    You say in response to my question:

    94

    The bread of God is a person!

    6:33
    For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    The Jews were having a little difficulty understanding what Jesus meant by the statement “the bread that I will give is my flesh”, also.

    6:52
    The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?  
    6:53
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  
    6:54
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  
    6:55
    For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  

    6:60
    Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?  
    6:61
    When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?  
    6:62
    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?  

    Then Jesus explains to the Apostles what he meant by the statement about eating his flesh:

    6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.  But his body also came down from heaven it that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  I believe that I heard you say in another thread that “spirit is the real person”.  It is what Jesus did in the body that gives us the opportunity for eternal life.  Hebrews 5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
    5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    God Bless


    94

    You say…

    Quote
    6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.

    You are close, however you are adding to what Jesus said.

    Jesus said…

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    The reason Jesus “words” are Spirit and life is because he is the **Word**, and out of him proceeds the words of Eternal life as Peter said!

    He is the Eternal Life that was with the Father. Jn 1:1,2.

    Jesus didnt mean to literally eat of his flesh and his Blood.

    It was his Word (body,flesh) and his Spirit (blood,water).

    This is why he said…

    Jn 7:37
    In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink*.

    And I might reiterate here that no mere man or anointed Prophet could give men to drink of the Spirit.

    Again Jesus 'is” the Bread of Life.

    Many men spoke the word of God, so did that mean they were also “The Bread of God”?

    Again, he didnt say “I bring you the bread of God, by speaking the words of God to you”.

    *I am the bread that came down from heaven!*

    Rev 19:13
    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.

    Jesus is not the result of a spoken word from God.

    Jesus is the Word!

    Jn 1:
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God, and the Word was God*.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made *by him*; and *without him* was not any thing made that was made.

    94, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I see nothing in John ch 6 that even hints that Jesus was saying that he is the “Thought or plan” of God.

    There is two realitys in the universe, created and uncreated, God and creation.

    Since by Jesus *all things were made* and *without him was not anything made that was made*, then that puts Jesus in the uncreated God catagory!

    :)

    #53272
     WorshippingJesus 
    Participant
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    Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,11:59)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 26 2007,10:45)

    Quote (942767 @ May 26 2007,09:38)
    Hi WJ:

    You say in response to my question:

    94

    The bread of God is a person!

    6:33
    For the bread of God *is he* which “cometh down” from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    The Jews were having a little difficulty understanding what Jesus meant by the statement “the bread that I will give is my flesh”, also.

    6:52
    The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?  
    6:53
    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.  
    6:54
    Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.  
    6:55
    For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.  

    6:60
    Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?  
    6:61
    When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?  
    6:62
    What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?  

    Then Jesus explains to the Apostles what he meant by the statement about eating his flesh:

    6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.  But his body also came down from heaven it that he was conceived of the Holy Ghost.  I believe that I heard you say in another thread that “spirit is the real person”.  It is what Jesus did in the body that gives us the opportunity for eternal life.  Hebrews 5:8
    Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;  
    5:9
    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    God Bless


    94

    You say…

    Quote
    6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK TO YOU, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so the bread of God is the Word of God that came to humanity through Him.

    You are close, however you are adding to what Jesus said.

    Jesus said…

    6:51
    *I am the living bread which came down from heaven*: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    The reason Jesus “words” are Spirit and life is because he is the **Word**, and out of him proceeds the words of Eternal life as Peter said!

    He is the Eternal Life that was with the Father. Jn 1:1,2.

    Jesus didnt mean to literally eat of his flesh and his Blood.

    It was his Word (body,flesh) and his Spirit (blood,water).

    This is why he said…

    Jn 7:37
    In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, *If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink*.

    And I might reiterate here that no mere man or anointed Prophet could give men to drink of the Spirit.

    Again Jesus 'is” the Bread of Life.

    Many men spoke the word of God, so did that mean they were also “The Bread of God”?

    Again, he didnt say “I bring you the bread of God, by speaking the words of God to you”.

    *I am the bread that came down from heaven!*

    Rev 19:13
    And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called *The Word of God*.

    Jesus is not the result of a spoken word from God.

    Jesus is the Word!

    Jn 1:
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the *Word was with God, and the Word was God*.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made *by him*; and *without him* was not any thing made that was made.

    94, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I see nothing in John ch 6 that even hints that Jesus was saying that he is the “Thought or plan” of God.

    There is two realitys in the universe, created and uncreated, God and creation.

    Since by Jesus *all things were made* and *without him was not anything made that was made*, then that puts Jesus in the uncreated God catagory!

    :)


    No WJ:

    Sorry, you accuse me of adding to Jesus said, but I believe that it is you that is adding to what he said.  Jesus came from heaven in two ways: he was conceived of the Holy Ghost, and so the prophetic Word of God  became a reality, when he was born, and so, the scripture says, John 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, * (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Secondly, the Word of God that he taught and that he obeyed came from God, and so from heaven. John 14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    John 6:68
    Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go ? thou hast the words of eternal life.

    15:45
    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made * a living soul; THE LAST ADAM  WAS MADE A QUICKENING SPIRIT.

    If Jesus was made a life giving spirit as he learned obedience by the suffering that he endured having obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross, how could he pre-exist his advent on earth.  He was born into the world an infant just like all of us, and his personality was developed as he applied the Word of God to his life in this World.  God made man in his own image and Jesus manifested God's character through the life that he lived while here on earth.  He was born into the world and became the person that he is in this world.

    God Bless


    94

    I will address your other points. But I would like for you to give me your understanding of the following scriptures.

    John 6:
    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

    Do you think they were offended at Jesus saying he was the fullfilment of the word of God or the “Thought and plan of God?”

    No they were offended because he said *he was the bread of life that came down from heaven*

    And that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood, which means eat his words and drink his Spirit.

    Jesus is the Word and the Spirit&#
    33; Jn 1:1, Rev 19:13, Jn 7:37, 2 Cor 3:17.

    62 *What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

    This scripture is in context where Jesus said *he (not a thought or plan) came down from heaven*.

    Can Jesus go back to being a thought or a plan?

    Jesus is apparantly a liar. How could he go back to where he was?

    If a thought and plan of God has been fulfilled in John 1:14. how does he reverse this prophetic event?

    You deny every possible rule of interpretation and hermeneutics if you interpret this scripture as meaning anything else than what Jesus plainly says.

    Jn 6:50
    *This is the bread which cometh down from heaven*, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    Jn 6:51
    I am the *living bread* which came down from heaven:

    A thought and a plan is not living, and a thought and a plan is not an “I Am”, and a thought and a plan does not come down from heaven, and surely a thought and a plan does not go up to heaven where it came from!

    Jn 6:62
    *What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

    Please explain!

    ???

    #53273
     WorshippingJesus 
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    94

    You say…

    Quote

    Hi WJ:

    First, what offended the Jews is that Jesus was talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

    John 6:52
    The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?

    And the following scripture says that some of his disciples were also did not understand what he meant by this according to the following scripture:

    John 6:60
    Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

    In fact some of the disciples quit following him because they did not understand about eating his flesh and drinking his blood according to the following scriptue:

    John 6:66
    From that time many of his disciples went back *, and walked no more with him.

    But Jesus explains to the those disciples who are continuing to follow him what he meant in the following scripture:

    John 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh * * profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    And so, when Jesus states:  Jn 6:62
    *What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

    He explains this also by John 6:61 and he is talking about eating the Words that he is teaching.  The Spirit of the Son is eternal, God knew what he would teach his Son when he came into the world.  We know his body did not exist before he was born of the Virgin Mary, but talks also about drinking his blood, and of course this the remedy for sin, and so I don't see a problem with him saying “what if I ascend where I was before”.  He is talking about the spirit.  It is the life that a person lives in the body that defines who that person is, and so Jesus is the living bread, that is the word of God applied to his life by which he lives and by which we also live if we believe and obey his commandments.

    And so, the Logos (concept or idea) of conceiving a Son from a virgin was with God in the beginning and the Word or the Spirit that would be formed within him when he came into the world was with God in the beginning.  This the life-giving spirit that Jesus would become.

    Saying that Jesus existed with God in any other way does not make any sense at all.

    God Bless

    I will respond shortly!

    :)

    #53274
     Not3in1 
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    And so, the Logos (concept or idea) of conceiving a Son from a virgin was with God in the beginning and the Word or the Spirit that would be formed within him when he came into the world was with God in the beginning. This the life-giving spirit that Jesus would become.

    Saying that Jesus existed with God in any other way does not make any sense at all.
    ***********************

    94, I agree. I am working on my post for this thread. I've been doing a little studying (uh-oh) and will respond soon. I also watched the movie, “Nativity” tonight and just bawled like a baby. It was pretty fitting for the topic of conversations I've been having lately on these boards. John 1:1 ties into the “conception” and “virgin birth” threads -it's all related. Anyway, I'm excited to study this some more. You and WJ have started this thread off strong!

    #53279
     WorshippingJesus 
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    94

    You say…

    Quote

    First, what offended the Jews is that Jesus was talking about eating his flesh and drinking his blood.

    John 6:52
    The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat ?

    Not only did I say that but I also said…

    Quote

    No they were offended because he said *he was the bread of life that came down from heaven*

    And that they had to eat his flesh and drink his blood, which means eat his words and drink his Spirit.

    Jesus is the Word and the Spirit! Jn 1:1, Rev 19:13, Jn 7:37, 2 Cor 3:17.

    Now lets see what the scriptures says…

    Jn 6:33
    For the bread of God is *he which cometh down from heaven*, and giveth life unto the world.
    38 For *I came down from heaven*, not to do mine own will (see Heb 10:5-9), but the will of him that sent me
    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40 and this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    41 *the Jews then murmured at him*, because he said, I am the bread which *came down from heaven*.

    So they were not just murmuring over eating his flesh and blood, but that he said “He came down from heaven”.
    This is why he goes on to say…

    Jn 6:
    60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, *This is an hard saying; who can hear it*?
    61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

    62 *What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before*?

    66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    So it was both the eating of his flesh and the drinking of his blood and his claiming to come down from heaven that offended them and was hard for them to recieve!

    You say…

    Quote

    We know his body did not exist before he was born of the Virgin Mary, but talks also about drinking his blood, and of course this the remedy for sin, and so I don't see a problem with him saying “what if I ascend where I was before”.  He is talking about the spirit.

    Look closer 94.

    Jesus did not say “what and if ye shall see the Spirit ascend up where it was”! Or the thought or the plan!

    He said…

    *What and if ye shall see the **Son of man**  ascend up where **he was before**?

    This is plain and needs no explaining away into some ethereal nothingness of a “Thought or a plan”.

    Sorry. Can you tell me how John 1:1 through John 1:51, out of 51 verses the translators used over 40 personal pronouns ascribing them to Jesus, if the Apostle John meant the Word was not a person? ???  

    I leave you with a quote to martian who I think is an Alias “m42” namely.

    So let me see you say you accept their use of the term. You mean you think the 600+ scholars interpreted “The word was with God” and the “Word was God” and they did not believe Yeshua was the Word? Why didn’t they just say so instead of using around 40 pronouns in John ch 1 referring to the Word. Why didn’t they translate it like this…

    Jn 1:
    1 In the beginning was the idea or plan, and the idea or plan was with God, and the idea or plan was God.
    2 The same idea or plan was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made.
    4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men.
    10 It was in the world, and the world was made by it, and the world knew it not.
    11 It came unto its own, and its own received it not.
    12 But as many as received it, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on its name:
    14 And the idea or plan was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld its glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    I don’t know of any translation that reads like that, do you?

    Again, Paul also didn’t indicate Jesus was just a thought or plan in the beginning when he said…

    Col 1:
    16  *For by him were all things created*, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  
    17 And *he is before all things, and by him all things consist*.

    Here is five personal pronouns in two verses speaking of Yeshua’s preexistence before “ALL” things!

    BTW. You quoted..

    1 Cor 15:45
    And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.

    Notice the brakets for “was made”. Added by the translators.

    Look at this verse in its context and a better rendering of the verse would be…

    1 Cor 15: YLT
    45 so also it hath been written, `The first man Adam became a living creature,' the *last Adam is for a life-giving spirit*,
    46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
    47 The first man is out of the earth, earthy; *the second man is the Lord out of heaven*;

    Jesus is and was the Eternal life that was with the Father, 1 Jn 1:1,2, and he is the Lord from heaven!

    Blessings!

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