Jesus came in the flesh and/or changed to flesh

This topic contains 2,120 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 6 months, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #359589
     journey42 
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    By the way Kerwin,
    My answer to Mike just now was my short version.
    oops!

    #359591
     kerwin 
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    Journey42,

    Quote
    Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit. They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
    ….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.

    spirit has more than one meaning. Which are you using?

    do you believe the same definition applies to the Word?

    #359592
     kerwin 
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    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 04 2013,09:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27)
    This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread.

    Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:

    Quote
    Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael:

    1.  He was turned into flesh?  YES or NO?
    2.  He became flesh?  YES or NO?
    3.  He came in the flesh?  YES or NO?
    4.  He came in the likeness of sinful flesh?  YES or NO?
    5.  He partook in flesh?  YES or NO?
    6.  He was made in the likeness of a human being?  YES or NO?
    7.  He was transformed into flesh?  YES or NO?
    8.  He was changed into a human being?  YES or NO?
    9.  He had two different “beginnings”?  YES or NO?

    The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”.  So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.

    So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.

    or

    You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.

    That is what I call nonsense.


    Kerwin.

    The Word was made,made, made.flesh.

    From *flesh to flesh* as you say it is.
    This alone is a strange, and contradicting iterpretation.

    I say from spirit to flesh.Made from one thing to another thing.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    You cannot touch spirit.

    According to you God made Jesus' flesh out of that which cannot be touched and Jesus soul out of the soul of this thing you call the word. Do I understand you correctly.

    #359593
     journey42 
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    mikeboll64,Oct. wrote:

    Quote
    Did God Himself actually change and become flesh?


    No

    Quote
    If the answer is “NO”, then the Word who was with God couldn't have actually BEEN God Himself.  And that means the Word was a separate entity who was brought out from God, and therefore God's first creation.


    This is a very tricky question, and now I have to put on my real thinking cap!

    The scriptures say that the Word was God, and I believe this to be the correct translation.  For me, it makes perfect sense.  It's God's Word, and no one else.  For we learn't from the scripture in psalms that the Word is the breath of God's mouth coming out of him.

    Now, I explained earlier that according to my understanding, that even though God brought his Word out of himself, he still has it with him, in him also, for he raised Christ from the dead.

    So the Word was God, yes, and in God, and then he brought the Word out of himself and made it separate yet still connected to him because he controls it.
    It was this Word that was transformed to flesh and not God himself, but his Word.
    I see it like this;
    God's word is the blueprint of himself.  His makeup. I call it his spiritual dna because he's not flesh, and it's this dna that is used to create a Son, his only begotten son when the Word changes and transforms into Mary's womb.

    Does this answer your question?  Don't forget it's only my view and understanding.

    Quote
    Also, let me remind you all of Tertullian's perfectly logical words:  He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is another.


    Who is Tertullian?

    Quote
    Keeping that in mind, there is no contradiction to be found in the fact that God, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF, created all things THROUGH His firstborn Son, the Word.


    Yes, amen.

    Quote
    And it also makes sense that the one THROUGH WHOM God created all things is “ANOTHER”……… ie:  “Not God Himself”.


    Which contradicts the above?

    #359599
     942767 
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    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 14 2013,11:56)

    Quote (942767 @ Oct. 14 2013,11:09)
    Hi Wakeup:'

    You say:

    Quote
    He was made flesh, by birth,the only begotten of God.
    Born by the *WILL* of God.
    *Now only* is he the Son of God;
    *Now only* is God his father,and his God.
    For he was made as his brethren/the Son of man/the Son of David.

    So, the Word was made flesh by birth, that is to say when the Word, Jesus, was born of the virgin Mary?  And he was not the Son of God as the Word but became the Son of God when he was born of the virgin Mary?

    And you say:

    Quote

    In the BEGINNING was the word.
    *BEGINNING* because that's when the Word *BEGINS* To create.

    Please show me where the scriptures state that the Word begins to create.  Thanks.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty


    Marty.

    In the beginning was the Word.
    Before the BEGINNING; the word was not used to create.
    Before the beginning the Word was not uttered by God.
    But was in God;but the creation has not commenced.

    wakeup.


    Hi Wakeup:

    While it is true and is scriptural that God created everything by His Word, and when he began to create, this Word, or plan was already established, and He knew from the beginning what He was going to do with what he was going to create and what He was going to do with His creation, humanity, and He Knew what He was going to say to humanity through those serving Him, angels, prophets, Jesus, and whatever else was in his plan in reconciling humanity to Himself, that is not what you said initially, but you said that “the Word began to create”, indicating that Jesus, whom you say is the Word, is the creator.

    Love in Christ,
    Marty

    #359614
     Wakeup 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2013,14:28)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 04 2013,09:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27)
    This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread.

    Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:

    Quote
    Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael:

    1.  He was turned into flesh?  YES or NO?
    2.  He became flesh?  YES or NO?
    3.  He came in the flesh?  YES or NO?
    4.  He came in the likeness of sinful flesh?  YES or NO?
    5.  He partook in flesh?  YES or NO?
    6.  He was made in the likeness of a human being?  YES or NO?
    7.  He was transformed into flesh?  YES or NO?
    8.  He was changed into a human being?  YES or NO?
    9.  He had two different “beginnings”?  YES or NO?

    The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”.  So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.

    So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.

    or

    You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.

    That is what I call nonsense.


    Kerwin.

    The Word was made,made, made.flesh.

    From *flesh to flesh* as you say it is.
    This alone is a strange, and contradicting iterpretation.

    I say from spirit to flesh.Made from one thing to another thing.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    You cannot touch spirit.  

    According to you God made Jesus' flesh out of that which cannot be touched and Jesus soul out of the soul of this thing you call the word.  Do I understand you correctly.


    Kerwin.

    How did God create the angels,for they are spirit
    creatures?

    God can turn spirit into flesh, and flesh into spirit.
    And from nothing into something.

    wakeup.

    #359615
     Wakeup 
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    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 14 2013,12:49)

    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17)
    First of all, the Word is not a creature.  It is spirit.


    Quote
    Angels are also spirit.  Are they creations?


    Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit.  They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
    ….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.

    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17)
    The Word was always inside God from everlasting.


    Quote
    The same could be said about every single thing in existence today.  
    All things originally came out from God.

     
    Everything was made by God and consists of him, because it's created with his wisdom, but doesn't mean that all came out of him like a replica of him?
    Animals are not a replica of him,
    this is different, he spoke and it was done.
    The only that came out of him was his Word, and we all know that the Word was later transformed into Christ.  
    This is why he is the “only begotten son”.  He has his Father's genes. Spiritual genes, made up of truth, honor, wisdom, righteousness etc, …all the same attributes as his Father, for before he was even Jesus Christ he came out of his Father as the Word,
    nothing else has this title, and nothing else came out of him the same way.  He is like no-other.  He is his real son, of highest majesty.
     

    Lets consider this verse again;
    Psalms 33:6   By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

    So everything God speaks (his word) comes out of his mouth.  Whether his Word is in him or beside him, it's still his breath because he controls it.
    Man, beast and all things God created had a beginning, so how can this have always been with God?  God is from everlasting with no beginning.  The idea was there, but this is different to his Word which was always in him,
    And the Word was not always beside him, for there came a time when God bought his word out of him and gave it a shape.  This was at the beginning of creation and we know he did this for a purpose.

    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17)
    But there comes a time in the beginning (when God starts creating) that he brings forth his word out of himself and gives it a shape and a job to do,


    Quote
    at this point, the Word is actually an individual BEING, separate from God Himself, right?  Therefore, the Word is a new CREATION that God brought forth.


    I could be wrong, but I don't see it as a new creation, for the Word already existed, and just because God brought it out of him and put it next to him means to me he only moved it from one place to another.  
    also another fact to consider is just because God brought his word out of himself and made it to be next to him, does not mean that he does not have the word inside him still?
    For example, when Christ was crucified, who resurrected him?  God did with his Word.  So this shows that it must be in him still, for he rose Christ from the dead with that same Word.
    The idea was there in God's plan even before all creation that he would bring his Word out, for the purpose of transforming it into a new creation which happened when it was made into flesh. Now it's a new creation, because it's gone from spirit to flesh.  A huge change.

    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 12 2013,20:17)
    And God tells the Word, do this and do that, and the Word obeys.  God is still in control of his word.  He gives the orders. So God transformed his image (his word that was beside him), turned it to flesh, and gave him his own mind, to make his own decisions, choosing whether to obey or not……..


    Quote
    These two don't align, journey.  If the Word was obeying God before the world began, then he must have had his own mind even back then.


    I'm not quite sure how to answer this one, and it's a good point, but I was referring to when the Word became flesh, the man Jesus Christ.  It takes on a whole different challenge.  The Word is no longer spirit but is in a flesh body now with all it's weaknesses like hunger, pain, sorrow, temptation etc. which is why Christ was glorified because he remained as faithful as that same word did in the beginning despite all the hardships he experienced on this earth.


    MikeB.

    Quote
    Quote
    These two don't align, journey. If the Word was obeying God before the world began, then he must have had his own mind even back then.

    .

    MikeB,please tell me:
    HAS YOUR WORD HIS OWN MIND?

    wakeup.

    #359641
     journey42 
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    kerwin,Oct. wrote:

    Quote

    Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit.  They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
    ….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.

    Quote
    Journey42,
    spirit has more than one meaning.  Which are you using?


    Hi Kerwin
    The meaning I'm using is that Angels were created spirit creatures.  

    Quote
    do you believe the same definition applies to the Word?


    No, the Word was not a created a spirit creature, but already existed inside God.  God is spirit, so his Word also is spirit and used to create everything that exists.

    #359642
     kerwin 
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    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 15 2013,05:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 14 2013,14:28)

    Quote (Wakeup @ Oct. 04 2013,09:51)

    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 04 2013,12:27)
    This thread is a continuation of part of a conversation between Mike and me in the Who is the Word thread.

    Miike wrote in response to my earlier words:

    Quote
    Kerwin, if God chose to cause Michael the archangel to be conceived in the womb of a human woman tomorrow, could we later say about Michael:

    1.  He was turned into flesh?  YES or NO?
    2.  He became flesh?  YES or NO?
    3.  He came in the flesh?  YES or NO?
    4.  He came in the likeness of sinful flesh?  YES or NO?
    5.  He partook in flesh?  YES or NO?
    6.  He was made in the likeness of a human being?  YES or NO?
    7.  He was transformed into flesh?  YES or NO?
    8.  He was changed into a human being?  YES or NO?
    9.  He had two different “beginnings”?  YES or NO?

    The only HONEST answer to all 9 questions is “YES”.  So there is no contradiction in me believing that Jesus both “came in” and was “turned into” flesh.

    So according to you it is honest to say that a woman both came in a dress and was transformed into a dress.

    or

    You believe it is honest to say both a creature transformed into a woman and her dress and came in a dress.

    That is what I call nonsense.


    Kerwin.

    The Word was made,made, made.flesh.

    From *flesh to flesh* as you say it is.
    This alone is a strange, and contradicting iterpretation.

    I say from spirit to flesh.Made from one thing to another thing.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    You cannot touch spirit.  

    According to you God made Jesus' flesh out of that which cannot be touched and Jesus soul out of the soul of this thing you call the word.  Do I understand you correctly.


    Kerwin.

    How did God create the angels,for they are spirit
    creatures?

    God can turn spirit into flesh, and flesh into spirit.
    And from nothing into something.

    wakeup.


    Wakeup,

    I have never known God to create the physical out of spirit. I do not even believe spirits such as ghosts and possibly demons have a body to be transformed in such a way.

    Changing a soul is changing who an entity is. If the soul of a best is changed to the soul of a man then the beast becomes a spiritual creature as well as a natural creation and so in its self is essentially a different creature. A change in spirit is nowhere as drastic as the essential self remains the same even as the spiritual self changes.

    A spirit creature is a soul without a body in search of a body.

    #359643
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 13 2013,17:53)
    I will judge which I feel fit in with the conversation and are significant.


    Okay.  If and when you feel fit to answer all nine exactly as I've asked, I will continue on with this discussion.

    BTW, your “dress” analogy is SO not applicable.  Perhaps, when the day comes that people can say, “Human beings consist of DRESS and blood”, it will apply to this particular discussion.

    Until that time, this kind of nonsense you come up with does nothing but waste peoples' time.

    #359644
     kerwin 
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    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 16 2013,05:13)

    kerwin,Oct. wrote:

    Quote

    Hi Mike, Yes Angels are spirit.  They were created spirit, and are therefore creations
    ….But we are talking about the Word here, the Word of God that came out of God's mouth before it transformed into Jesus, not angels.

    Quote
    Journey42,
    spirit has more than one meaning.  Which are you using?


    Hi Kerwin
    The meaning I'm using is that Angels were created spirit creatures.  

    Quote
    do you believe the same definition applies to the Word?


    No, the Word was not a created a spirit creature, but already existed inside God.  God is spirit, so his Word also is spirit and used to create everything that exists.


    Journey,

    Quote
    The meaning I'm using is that Angels were created spirit creatures.

    Nordic elves were said to be spirit creatures who can pass through walls and display other miracles powers but were still able to breed with mankind. Spirits on the other hand could neither eat or be touched.

    I know of no scripture that calls angels spirits of any type but they would in many ways fit the same definition as do Nordic elves. They do not fit the definition that is applied to ghosts.

    #359645
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,19:49)
    Lets consider this verse again;
    Psalms 33:6   By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

    So everything God speaks (his word) comes out of his mouth.  Whether his Word is in him or beside him, it's still his breath because he controls it.
    Man, beast and all things God created had a beginning, so how can this have always been with God?


    Hi journey,

    You seem to think that “the Word of God” who was made flesh was a literal word that God at one time spoke out of His mouth.  This is not the case.  The BEING Jesus Christ has the TITLE “the Word of God” simply because he is God's main spokesman.  It has nothing to do with Jesus Christ originating as a literal word that God spoke.

    On the other hand, the psalm you quoted DOES refer to literal, spoken words out of God's mouth.  The psalm refers to things like this:

    Genesis 1
    3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

    6 And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” 7 So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so.

    9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so.

    Notice verse 7.  God said, “Let there be……”, and then God (not His literal word) made it so.  

    Some people on this site seem to think God spoke, and then one or more of His literal words obeyed Him, and went about doing the actual creating.

    But not one of these literal words that God spoke in the verses above were living entities.  They weren't living beings who were God at the same time they were with God.  They were simply words that God said, and then GOD went about accomplishing the things He said.  In this way, God “spoke all things into existence”.  In this way, “the heavens and all other things were made by the word of Jehovah – by the breath of His mouth”.

    He SAID it, and it was so.

    It seems to me that many people here have the idea that these words God spoke actually went out and created things.  Like the words, “Let there be light” left out of God's mouth, and then went and created light for God.

    And the reason they come up with this kind of thinking is because they can't figure out another way how, in John 1, the Word could both be with God, and also be God.  

    But the fact that Jesus holds the title “the Word of God” has nothing at all to do with any literal words God spoke out of His mouth.  It is simply the title of God's spokesman, much like the spokesman for the King of Abyssinia had the title, “the word of the king”.  That spokesman was never a literal word that the king spoke, nor did he ever come forth out of the king's mouth.  It is simply a title for the one who does the king's bidding….. the official who speaks for the king.  The title has nothing to do with that person being a literal word.

    It is the same with Jesus.  He is called “the Word of God” because he is God's spokesman – not because he has ever been a literal spoken word from God's mouth.

    Jesus is God's firstborn spirit son.  What makes you think that he wasn't created when all his spirit brothers were?  Yes, he was the FIRST one.  But he has always, since God created him, been a spirit son of God.  He was created as the first of God's works.  (Prov 8:22)  He is the firstborn of every creature.  (Col 1:16)  He is the beginning of the creation by God.  (Rev 3:14)

    Your interpretation calls for him starting off inside God, as God Himself, and then becoming an individual being who is no longer God.  And that conclusion comes from your insistence upon the flawed “and the Word was God” translation of John 1:1.  

    God cannot be WITH God.  Something that WAS God cannot somehow become “not God”.  But we must accept both of these impossible things in order to accept what you and Wakeup claim.

    So, first things first.  Are you willing to accept that 99% of the times the phrase “the word of God” is used in scripture, it refers simply to words or commands that God has given – and only about 4 or 5 times does that phrase actually refer to a living, breathing BEING?

    #359646
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,19:55)
    By the way Kerwin,
    My answer to Mike just now was my short version.
    oops!


    :D

    #359647
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
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    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,21:38)
    This is a very tricky question, and now I have to put on my real thinking cap!

    The scriptures say that the Word was God, and I believe this to be the correct translation.


    Did you know that the FACT of the matter, as concluded by Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian scholars alike, is that “and the Word was a god” is one of the  two grammatically acceptable translations of John 1:1c?

    Grammatically, there is just as much chance that John meant to say “the Word was a god” as there is that he meant to say “the Word was God”.  EQUAL ODDS.  Are you with me so far?

    So, we must decide from the context which one John meant.

    As for the most common translation, even the Trinitarian scholars from NET Bible.org say:  The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”)

    So even these Trinitarians, who want nothing more than for Jesus to be God Almighty, can understand that the construction of 1:1c does NOT equate the Word with God Himself – due to the very obvious statement, “and the Word was WITH God”.

    So one translation has us believing these two things:
    1.  God Himself was WITH God Himself in the beginning.

    2.  Something that WAS God Himself later became someone who was NO LONGER God Himself.

    And the other translation has us believing:
    1.  Jesus was a god who was with THE God in the beginning.

    Considering that Jesus IS called “god” at least five different times in scripture, and Jesus IS the Word who became flesh and dwelled on earth with the glory of God's only begotten – which is the more sensible translation?

    journey, I'm glad you came into this discussion “looking with fresh eyes” – and that you are willing to give these things some serious thought.

    #359648
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (journey42 @ Oct. 13 2013,21:38)

    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Oct. 14 2013,03:35)
    He who creates is one, and he THROUGH WHOM the thing is created is another.


    Who is Tertullian?


    He was one of the “early church fathers”. But that's not important. What matters is the undeniable logic of those words he wrote.

    Many here want to credit the Word with the creation, mostly because of the KJV's use of the word “by” when they should have translated as “through”.

    But 1 Cor 8:6 makes it pretty clear that there is a difference between God, FROM WHOM all things came, and the Lord Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM all things came.

    For example, the fact that you were created THROUGH your parents doesn't change the fact that God, ALONE AND BY HIMSELF, created you.

    So the Word is never said to have done any creating of his own. God did all the creating. It's just that God chose to do that THROUGH the Word.

    And Tertullian's words make that point very well – which is why I often use them.

    journey, don't confuse the ones THROUGH WHOM God created with the God who actually did the creating.

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