Is Jesus the Logos?

This topic contains 1,635 replies, has 13 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 5 days, 1 hour ago.

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  • #802785
     t8 
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    Therefore it is safe to conclude: it is through Jesus’ death on the cross that all things were created by God.

    Where is the word ‘death’ mentioned in relation to why God created all things through the son.

    And spell out to me exactly how the process works?

    So he dies for humanity, then God decides to create all things?
    Or before anything was created God decided Jesus would die on a cross and because of that thought he decided to create all things billions of eons ago, and two thousand years ago, Jesus died on that cross that he thought about.

    I cannot see any of these options as being taught in scripture, but you have to hold to one of these or something similar right?

    #802786
     t8 
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    There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it?

    What claim? These ones?

    Hebrews 1:2
    but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

    Colossians 1:15-17
    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities– all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

    Revelation 19:13
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    John 8:58
    Before Abraham, I am

    Colossians 1:17
    He is before all things, and in him all things hold together

    I am betting that your evidence is much less than these scriptures above.

     

    #802787
     Ed J 
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    There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it?

    What claim? These ones?

    Hi T8,

    No, this one…

    ‘he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth’ – T8

    Note: the word “he” is in reference to Jesus Christ
    Also Note: That I separated your claim as a sentence fragment
    so as to not detract from other ideas presented in the complete sentence.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    Now that ‘your claim’ has been properly identified:

    It is to ‘your claim’ that I have offered Jeremiah 18:5
    as counter evidence, but you seem to reject it as such.
    You have not answered my question, so I’ll ask it again…

    There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it? “Yes” or “No” ?

    #802788
     Ed J 
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    Where is the word ‘death’ mentioned in relation to why God created all things through the son.

    (D)And spell out to me exactly how the process works?

    (A)So he dies for humanity, then God decides to create all things?
    (B)Or before anything was created God decided Jesus would die on a cross and because of that thought he decided to create all things billions of eons ago, and two thousand years ago, Jesus died on that cross that he thought about.

    (C)I cannot see any of these options as being taught in scripture, but you have to hold to one of these or something similar right?

    Hi T8,

    A) No
    B) A bit awkwardly worded, but yes that is the idea
    C) See points A and B

    D) That is what I’ve been attempting to do. (here are repeated words from a previous post)

    1. It is clear that Jesus’ death on the cross was planned at least by Genesis 1:15, if not before.
    2. And Rev.13:8 suggests Jesus’ death on the cross was planned even before the creation of the world.

    ______________________________________________________________________________
    More on “D”

    “Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say?
    Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause
    (the crucifixion) came I unto this hour.” (John 12:27)

    D) In John 12:27 the crucifixion is shown to be predetermined.
    So when was the crucifixion predetermined? at least by Genesis 1:15
    And according to Revelation 13:8, before even the creation of the world.
    You are of course free to not believe this, but that’s how the process works.

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #802790
     t8 
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    There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it? “Yes” or “No” ?

    Of course I am happy to see any evidence. But to be honest I have no reason to have any faith in your evidence given the history of evidence you have provided for other claims you have made here. I am not trying to be nasty but just being honest. I do not like wasting my time with wild goose chases and I fear that this will happen again. I gave my reasons with scripture and those scriptures were but the tip of the iceberg. I doubt you can challenge all of them as they are written, but feel free to do so.

    #802791
     t8 
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    I have no problem believing that Jesus laying his life down was known beforehand. After all, God created beings with free will, thus it was probably only a matter of time before some of those beings chose against God which he allowed for. And God is all knowing, thus he is not ignorant of this and had a plan for this.

    But that doesn’t mean that God created all things because Jesus was going to die on a cross. God created all things because he is love and love seeks to share that love with others.

    So creation is one thing and redemption another. Redemption is a way to stop creation from being fully corrupt and dying. It is a power of God that counters the corruption of evil as life overrides death and light overcomes darkness.

    God created all things for his son and through him. That is written. You believe that God created all things for him, but you do not seem to believe that God created all things through him, yet that is explicitly stated in scripture more than once. You are trying to convince me otherwise.

    #802792
     GeneBalthrop 
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    T8……you well know that the trinitarian belifs are not true, why can’t you stand back and try to see tgat many text were translated to make JESUS APPEAR AS A PAST EXISTING GOD OF SOME KIND. They apply powers to JESUS HE NEVER HAD. They have tweaked the text to favor their views, this started to take place right at the beginning, the deciple had to fight it continually and evensaid when they dies these false teachers would over take them.

    IF YOU COULD JUST SEE WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT that Satan wants us to all be different the JESUS, IT WOUL TURN A HOLE NEW LIGHT on in your understanding. Satan does not want us to belueve Jesus was and is exactly as the rest of his brothers and sisters. Because h knows if we see him differently then ourselves we can not “TRULEY” relate with him on our level. He is the master mind behind making JESUS appear different the we are. We all know we are not GOD’S, NOR ARE WE EVEN CLOSE TO DOING WHAT HE CAN DO,SO HE CREATES THIS FALSE “IMAGE” OF JESUS BEING A GOD, AND THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING, IT ALL A “LIE” AS SHOWN IN 2 ths 2.

    READ IT WTH THS IN MIND AND THOSE SCRIPTURES WILL SHOW YOU CLEARLY IT IS JESUS BEING ACTUALLY TALKED ABOUT THERE, NO ONE ELSE. PLEASE DO THIS T8.

    YOU HAVE COME OUT of some of the tribitarian teachings, but not all yet. Jesus (himself) is not the word of GOD, HE HAS THAT TILE given him IN REVELATIONS BECAUSE he speaks GOD THE FATHERS WORD TO US, NOT HIS WORDS. THAT TITLE IS A RANK OF AUTHORITY.

    Why can’t you see it is important we see Jesus as a fellow human being, exactly as we are in ever way, without exception, and what GOD THE FATHER DID FOR HIM he can also do for us. In fct GOD WAN’T US TO BE “EXACTLY LIKE JESUS IN EVERY WAY. Jesus was a purely human example for all human being, he is exactly the same as all humanity is and overcame exactly as we have to do, through his FAITH IN THE LIVING GOD, OUR and HIS HEAVENLY FATHER. GOD THE FATHER IS THE “ONLY” CREATOR THERE IS. IMO

    EDJ’S QUESTION TO YOU IS well put i believe scripture says God soke in times past through the prophets, it does not say JESUS SPOKE TO THEM.

    peace and love to you and yours. …………gene

    #802793
     t8 
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    While the Trinity is not true, it is also not of the truth to reject everything they say. In other words, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater”.

    You cannot write off everything a group says simply because they are wrong in a certain thing. Everything needs to be tested, not written off.

    Two simple questions for you.

    Did God create all things through and for the son of God?

    Did God create all things through his Word?

    #802797
     terraricca 
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    Edj

    1. Jesus Christ came to Jeremiah the prophet
    – and –
    2. Jesus Christ spoke to Jeremiah the prophet
    Hi Pierre,

    “then “The Word” of the LORD came to me, saying” (Jer.18:5)

    If you believe points labeled #1 and #2,
    then the following words apply to you…

    What the quoted words of Jeremiah 18:5 REALLY MEAN is:
    then “Jesus Christ” came to the prophet Jeremiah, and spoke – Terraricca

    Do I have your view stated correctly?

    yes you have it right ,where ever it says in scriptures that the WORD OF GOD CAME TO ;;;;IT WAS JESUS (THE WORD OF GOD )

    #802799
     t8 
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    My view is that while it is certainly possible that Jesus (before the flesh) came to Jeremiah, we must remember that logos is also still part of God and always will be. God did not cast aside logos from himself, nor split it off from him when he begat another.

    Likewise, truth is part of God, and Jesus while not being God, said that he was the truth and him being the truth is not to the detriment of God as he remains true as ever.

    Clearly, one is an attribute of God, and the other a person other than God, namely the son of God.

    Likewise for wisdom.

    #802800
     terraricca 
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    EDJ

    (B)Or before anything was created God decided Jesus would die on a cross and because of that thought he decided to create all things billions of eons ago, and two thousand years ago,

    you seem not to understand how heaven works ,yet in scriptures it is explained ,did isaac knew that he would be the sacrifice ?

    why would God allow Jesus his only begotten son go through this ? and at what point in time did really Jesus knew that was the purpose of him being send to earth ?

    #802802
     terraricca 
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    t8

    Jesus was the truth personified why ? but simply because from the day of his own birth he has performed all the things that was foretold about him in the scriptures and we know that all prophecies have been given to man by the inspiration of the holy spirit of truth ,

    #802808
     GeneBalthrop 
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    T8……It is also not wise to hold on to any part of A LIE , taught about Jesus. If you would just stand back a little and try to get the whole picture of the false teachings about JESUS, AND WHO REALLY IS BEHIND IT, AND WHAT IS HIS PURPOSE BEHIND THOSE “LIES”. How it works to decieve humanity in their “EXACT” IDENITY WITH JESUS. THIS “LIE” was designed to move people away from a real connection with Jesus on a pure human level. SATAN WANTS US ALL TO SEE JESUS AS DIFFERENT THEN WE ARE, so he created the “DOCTRINE OF SEPERATION”, which moves JESUS AWAY FROM HUMANITY. It throws the whole plan of GOD for humanity off, by throwing off our “EXACT” connection with him. IN THIS CASE YOU ARE NOT THROWING THE BABY OUT WITH THE WASH YOU ARE SAVING HIM, BUT THROWING OUT “ALL” THE WASH NOT JUST PART OF IT.

    PLEASE CONSIDER THESE THINGS T8. “Come out of her my people that you recieve not of her plagues”, come all the way out not just part way. T8 this is crucial, ask God to show you, and go and reread 2 Ths 2, it all there and clear to those who have the truth of GOD IN THEM. It is ajesus himself who will abolish all those false teachings, about himself, when he comes, so that means those false teachibgs will remain untill he comes, only a few have come to see this truth, please go and read it with this in mind, it is talking about THE MAN JESUS , HE IS THE “ONLY ONE” WHO IS “NOW” SITTING IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, BEING DESPLAYED AS A GOD. NO ONE ELSE IS.

    peace and love to you and yours…………….gene

    #802814
     terraricca 
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    Edj

    I still wait for your prove where is it ?

    also look at what John said ;Jn 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    this mean in truth that John was saying in John 1;1 -3

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God.
    Jn 1:2 He was with God in the beginning.
    Jn 1:3 Through him(THE WORD) all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    Jn 1:10 He(THE WORD) was in the world, and though the world was made through him(THE WORD), the world did not recognize him(THE WORD).

    BUT WE ALL UNDERSTAND THAT “THE WORD’OF WHICH JOHN SPEEK ABOUT HIS JESUS CHRIST = THE WORD OF GOD so it seem you are not understanding scriptures properly at all

    #802815
     Ed J 
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    Hi T8,

    ‘he is the Word but took on another form, that of flesh when he came to earth’ – T8

    ‘Your claim’ means that you believe Jesus Christ was “The Word” before being incarnated into flesh.
    Also as I stated before, for your claim to be true, Jeremiah 18:5 must then therefore mean…

    (“then “The Word” of the LORD came to me, saying”)

    1. Jesus Christ came to the prophet Jeremiah
    – and –
    2. Jesus Christ spoke to the prophet

    Since Terraricca’s view is very similar to yours, I also stated…

    What the quoted words of Jeremiah 18:5 REALLY MEAN is:
    “then “Jesus Christ” came to the prophet Jeremiah, and spoke” – Terraricca

    Do I have your view stated correctly Pierre? (and here is his response to me…)

    “yes you have it right ,where ever it says in scriptures that the WORD OF GOD CAME TO ;;;;IT WAS JESUS (THE WORD OF GOD )”

    (THANK YOU Pierre for trying to be consistent with Scripture!)
    Funny how Pierre sees my point clear as crystal but you do not.
    Jeremiah 18:5 is but the first reason I give for rejecting ‘your claim’.

    There is more counter evidence against your claim, do you want to see it? “Yes” or “No”?

    Of course I am happy to see any evidence.

    Thank you for at least being willing to look at the evidence of why I reject ‘your claim’

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

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