October 26, 2016 at 9:33 am #817642
1 Timothy 4:10 “Jesus Christ, savior of ALL men, ESPECIALLY those who believe.”
Why would Timothy say that Jesus is the savior of all men, but especially of those who believe? That means he actually saved everyone, but those who believe are even more blessed than those who don’t believe. So those who don’t believe are still saved. If those who don’t believe aren’t saved, Timothy never would’ve wrote that. He would’ve wrote, “Jesus Christ, savior of all men who believe.”
By the way, there are several translations of the Bible that don’t once mention hell or eternal punishment from cover to cover. Young’s Literal Translation, 1891, is one of those and it’s pretty old. Notice it’s a “literal” translation. When you translate the Bible literally, it takes a lot of our own doctrinal influence out of it. That’s why Young’sLiterall Translation never mentions hell or eternal punishment or even the idea of it. Because it literally is not in the Bible, in more than one way.
The following are translations that don’t mention hell or the concept of eternal punishment in them at all, just like Young’s Literal Translation:
The Scarlet’s New Testament in 1798, The New Testament in Greek and English, 1823, 20th Century New Testament, Ravaham’s Emphasized (sp?), Fenton’s Holy Bible in Modern English, Weymouth’s New Testament in Modern Speech, The Jewish Publication Society Bible 1917. That’s just part of the list. There are more. Check out Tentmaker.org for more. You can also find the Church Father’s statements about hell being temporary on that website. It’s also important to note that the Augustine, who insisted that the ruler of the empire snuff out all belief in a redemptive hell, is likely responsible for the Dark Ages, because that was the beginning of the government burning writings that went against its religious beliefs. Also, the idea of hell admittedly came from the Egyptian leaders and the Roman leaders, all of whom wanted to control their subjects through fear. We know this because the sophists (the famous Western philosophers) tell us where those beliefs originated. So we have tons of proof showing us where the idea of a fiery hell came from. And unfortunately, Christians don’t like to study really deep (as was just shown through Marty’s example), so they stay stuck in their beliefs which have no foundation. The Bible does not teach an eternal hell in its original manuscripts or their copies.
There’s a good reason that the only people Jesus spoke out against were the religious. That’s something to really think about. Mainstream Christianity are the new Pharisees most likely. It always happens that way. Give mankind a few hundred years and they’ll screw up what God gave them. The Hebrews did it a few times and Christians in the past 1600 years are no different. Why do you think the Catholics killed millions upon millions of Christians and Jews? It’s because fear-induced religion causes crazy things like that to happen. There’s no love in fear. God tells us not to fear and that love is the opposite of fear. Therefore, He does not want us to fear Him or hell. And no verse that’s properly translated will say anything opposing that. God doesn’t need hell to get people saved. He uses love and love alone. You, like the Pharisees, are willingly turning a blind eye to what the Bible says. Again, I’m not saying I’m correct or universalism is correct. I’m strictly saying that the Bible doesn’t teach an eternal hell, but rather a temporary redemptive hell. I wouldn’t have any clue if my beliefs are correct or not. There’s little we can know for sure in this life. But if you guys claim to get your beliefs from the Bible, you’re sorely mistaken. You’ll want to dig deeper. Good luck.October 26, 2016 at 6:23 pm #817646
I wonder what Paul meant when he said ,”it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God” if you just die then what is so terrible about that ? we all have experience it already once ,
tell me how can the wicked paid for all his wrong doing ?October 27, 2016 at 3:34 pm #817660
Excellent question. Jesus answers that question with the parable of the man whose debt is forgiven by the king. When the man doesn’t forgive his debtors like the king forgave his debt, the king puts him in the dungeon until the last cent of his debt is paid. In other words, there is an end to his imprisonment. If Jesus were describing a hell that is eternal, his parable would’ve had the king say that the man would never get out of the dungeon. So it seems that the wicked pay for their sins in hell for a period of time, and this humbles them enough so that they accept Jesus and move on to heaven. They’re let out of the dungeon, so to speak. So falling into the hands of the living God would definitely be terrifying if a person must suffer hell for a while after they die. Is that not payment enough?
Wouldn’t you agree that suffering in hell, even for a little while, is terrifying and is sufficient payment?
Also, the Bible says that God is just. The Law shows this by having fair punishments for the crimes committed.
So, tell me this, if a man sins for 80 years then dies, is it more just for him to have to endure an eternity of punishment or 80 years of punishment?
I’m curious if you even read my other posts completely because it sounds like you think I don’t believe people go to hell at all. But I clearly stated, many times, that people go to hell temporarily and suffer judgment which purifies them and gets them to heaven eventually. Your English isn’t really good, so I suppose it’s possible you’re misunderstanding my posts.
If you do not answer my questions which are in bold letters, then I will not respond to you.
-BrianOctober 27, 2016 at 7:22 pm #817671
Jesus said that every man will be judged by his own judgment ,think this one over
this to me means that you are going to judge yourself but with a twist in it ;you wont be able to lie for the judgment of God is righteousness and truth
now i do not believe all men go to heaven scriptures don’t say that ,some are called to join Christ but not all some are to fulfill God’s will on earth after the final resurrection and judgment are over ,October 28, 2016 at 12:18 am #817682
I said that I would not respond to you unless you answered my questions, which you did not. When you’re ready to answer the questions from my last post, then I’ll respond to your post. It’s called respect for one another rather than dodging questions because you have no good answers to support your doctrines. I didn’t ask you if you believed everyone would go to heaven. I asked you very specific questions with very easy answers.
–BrianOctober 28, 2016 at 12:26 pm #817685
1)Wouldn’t you agree that suffering in hell, even for a little while, is terrifying and is sufficient payment?
2)So, tell me this, if a man sins for 80 years then dies, is it more just for him to have to endure an eternity of punishment or 80 years of punishment?
1a) when we die we do not go to hell or in punishment but in a wait position until the time of judgment (resurrection must first take place
2a) the time that a person spent on earth to accept God’s message is not relevant ,for the sole reason of us being here is to join our God and father will and stop doing our own will for it destroy’s us
again resurrection must occur first before judgment can start ,and that will not occur before the end of this age /return of JesusOctober 28, 2016 at 12:39 pm #817686
Thank you for answering my questions. Now I understand your belief better.
So, if a person goes to the wait position and then is resurrected and judged, where will he go from there? If he’s saved, he goes into the millennial kingdom? If he’s not saved, he goes to hell? I’m asking so I can better understand your belief on hell.
–BrianOctober 28, 2016 at 1:01 pm #817687
the first resurrection is for those that have washed their lives into the blood of Christ and only those will enter the sabbath of Christ
the second resurrection that comes after the sabbath /1000years are over ,will bring all other people forth for the judgment by the message of Jesus Christ and those that would reject that redemption will go into everlasting hell or permanent rejection by God,October 28, 2016 at 1:22 pm #817688
Then anytime I mention hell, especially in my questions to you, I want you to assume I’m talking about the hell that comes after the second resurrection and judgment, okay?
So now, go back to my questions I asked you about Jesus’ parable about the king who threw the man in the dungeon for not forgiving others their debt. Answer those questions again, but when they mention hell, assume I’m talking about the hell that comes after the second resurrection and judgment. If you’ll do that, then I can respond again.
–BrianOctober 28, 2016 at 2:10 pm #817689
you have to understand the parable within Jesus all teachings ,remember that Jesus quoted two commandants one of God and one for our respond to God’s first commandment for we cannot give anything to God but we can give what he ask to our fellow men and so apply the first ,
scriptures says that “THE REVENGE BELONG TO GOD ” not to us ,
the parable is said about something that will occur at judgment day, it can be looked at as a warning to us ,
we also have to take in account when Jesus said “NOT ALL WHO SAY LORD,LORD WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM ” many are deceivedOctober 28, 2016 at 3:49 pm #817690
When you answer my questions, I’ll respond.
–BrianOctober 28, 2016 at 4:06 pm #817691
I agree on the part that all as to be paid back before getting out of the dungeon,but this to me seem to be a third resurrection ,when the scriptures do not talk about a third one ,
to me it seem that when the second resurrection is started all people that ever lived on earth will be resurrected for judgment ,through the judgment of Christ ,but those that fail to join Jesus Christ redemption will go to eternal damnation meaning no way to get out of it for this would mean a third resurrection and a new crucifixion for Jesus and this is impossible
is this answered your question ?October 28, 2016 at 4:54 pm #817692
Thanks for answering my questions. Very few hold your belief on this matter, but I’m aware of your view. I learned it years ago. But one cannot discuss a redemptive hell with someone that has your belief. There’s no point since your view is so far out there. I’m fine discussing this subject with people who hold one of the more traditional views.
I simply don’t share your view and there’s no way to really discuss this with you. And I’m not interested in trying to disprove your view because you’re entitled to your own views, and it would be inconsiderate of me. I hope your view isn’t correct, because it would mean God is very unloving and cannot get His own will accomplished. That would just be sad. I would not serve a god like that. But hey, I can’t tell you what to believe or what’s correct. There’s very little we know for certain in this life.
Have a good day.
–BrianOctober 28, 2016 at 6:37 pm #817693
thanks ,but you may understand that all what happen in this world since Adam sin ,God could have prevented it ,but would it have been justice and righteousness ? NO
God my God is a loving God but a righteous one ,for to sent his only begotten son to go through what he went through for sinning men ,to have a way back to be standing upright again this is true love,
what I know is true ,what I said to you is true
but you are the ultimate judge of it before God and his son
have a great dayOctober 29, 2016 at 4:04 am #817694
I understand where you’re coming from and I respect that. I’ll explain how I view God’s nature, because your last message expresses your view of God’s nature.
The Bible says, “God is Love.” It never says, “God is Justice.” It does say God is “just,” but that’s describing a component of His nature, not His nature itself. So He is primarily love, and a component of that is justice. So His unconditional love always overrules His justice. This is shown by Jesus dying on the cross to save the entire world. If God were primarily Just in nature and secondarily loving, then He could never have sent Jesus to die on the cross, because that would circumvent justice. Also, God would never have had Paul make the statement twice in the Bible, “All things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial,” if He were primarily a Just God. He would’ve made justice paramount and law paramount above all other things, and there would be no escape from punishment.
So, because God is unconditionally-loving primarily, according to scripture, there’s no way He would ever let justice override love. It’s not possible if we go off of what the Bible says about His nature.
Since God is primarily Love, there’s no way He would create us and make us go into this world, against our will, knowing that tons of us will suffer in hell for eternity. That is an incredibly inconsiderate, hateful act with no rhyme or reason except to cause people pain.
However, if we step back and start taking some pieces of the Bible that tell us about God’s nature, we can start to build an understanding of God that makes more sense.
- God’s Will: Peter says that it is God’s will that none perish and that all repent. So we know God’s will.
- God’s Desire: The Bible says God does all His pleasure.
- God’s Abilities: The Bible says with God, all things are possible.
So God’s desire is that none perish and all repent (turn from their sinful ways). In other words, that would please Him. And He says He does ALL His pleasure. So that means He’s going to make sure His will/desires are accomplish if possible. And He says ALL THINGS are possible with Him. Therefore, He admitted that He can do anything and everything…which means make His desires/pleasure come true.
The only logical conclusion one can come to from putting those three statements together is that God must have built the system in which we live to get everyone saved, whether before or after death, through any means necessary. If He does not go to that extreme to save everyone when He said He can do anything and everything, then it means He is not loving. And in fact, it means He’s horribly unloving and hateful and vengeful and inconsiderate. Anyone who has the power to make sure people don’t suffer in hell forever and yet lets them anyway is extremely unloving. Once you understand the psychology of what causes us to sin, you very quickly see how easy it would be for God to use hell to resolve our issues that cause us to sin. I mean, it’s really simple.
So, if I were God, I’d create the system like that. I’d make sure hell is designed to resolve people’s issues that keep them from accepting God’s help and getting into heaven. Because everyone has free will so I can’t force them to do anything. But if I know exactly how their heart works and exactly how to manipulate their situation to cause their heart to break so they’ll accept me, then I can make sure their issues that cause them to sin get resolved. And that’d mean I did it without ever infringing on their free will. And since the result is that everyone ends up in heaven, then what I’ve done is loving. The Bible says God will restore all of creation. ALL of it. We are created, so we’re part of the creation, which means all of us will be restored. Several verses point to this or say it outright. So if I’m God and I can do anything, I get everyone saved, plain and simple. I’m not as loving as God, and yet I would do that for humanity. So how much more would He do it being that He is far more loving than me? If He lets people suffer hell forever, then I’m more loving than Him, so I don’t think that’s possible.
That’s the last I’ll post on this subject with you, because that describes enough for you to get an idea of what I’m pretty sure God has done with the creation. I’m sharing this information. I don’t want to push this view on you or anyone else, because I could be wrong. Heck, you could be right–I don’t know. All I know is that there’s a whole lot of logic and common sense and evidence backing the views I just expressed…so they’re worth considering.
Good talking to you and good luck with your studies. Don’t take it personally if I don’t respond to any more of your posts. It’s nothing against you personally, I just don’t have the time and I feel I’ve sufficiently discussed this topic with you. Also, I don’t like getting sucked into a debate (debates occur when anyone is trying to convince someone else they’re correct and the other side feels they need to defend their beliefs). I don’t care for debates…I just like to discuss things openly with a spirit of learning from everyone involved and no agendas being pushed.
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