February 9, 2017 at 3:30 pm #818632
“Andrew, you say that there are many explanations … but you fail to show any. How am I to understand the mind of a fallacious belief when you show no evidence at all. I guess you looked and equally found them all unbelievable and unsupported from Scriptures ((NOT THE TRINITY CREED!!”
I know you dispute the trinitarians so you don’t need me to tell you of their ideas or beliefs. I’d like to talk about what Paul thinks or believes about Jesus in Phillipians when he says “in the form of God”.
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.- NASB
What do you think Paul is saying here? when did Jesus exist in the”form of God” and empty himself taking the form of a bondservant? and “was made in the likeness of men”?-KJV we can look at different translations as well.
It seems to me that Paul thinks Jesus existed “in the form of God”-whatever that might mean, and emptied himself not only to be a servant but also a man. The idea that he emptied himself,or made himself of no reputation says”in the form of God” wasn’t a mere man. If he were just a mortal man to start with,then how did he make himself one? For that is a main point in vs 8 And being found in fashion as a man,he humbled himself,and became obedient unto death even the death of the cross KJV. How could he be found in fashion as a man if that’s what he always was?February 10, 2017 at 3:31 am #818640
Ah, skipping questions that can only result in revealing and affirming trinity fallacies… Yes, Andrew, I understand this method of avoidance from many disputes with trinitarians.
But since the thread is about ‘In the form of’ then let’s stick to this theme with minimum distractions (I always use an opportunity to reveal and confess trinity untruths!)
Andrew, you need to read the verses before Phil 2 because the theme is set there.
Paul was a late-comer to belief in Jesus as he was previously just the most zealous persecuter of the the new ‘christian’ sect. He learnt many things about Jesus from things related to him by the disciples (now Apostles) and things revealed by the Holy Spirit of the Father (Is the spirit of the Father a ‘Person’ – so the spirit of a man is yet another autonomous person different from the man?)
Paul begins chapter 1 by distinguishing between GOD and Jesus absolutely clearly e.g.:
Phil 1: 2, ‘Grace to you and peace from GOD our Father, and the Lord Jesus christ’
and phil 1:8: ‘For GOD is my witness, how greatly I long for you all [long to BE WITH?] with the affection of Jesus Christ’
He goes on in chapter 2 imploring the ‘saints in Christ Jesus’ in Philippi to ‘Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself’ (phi 2:3).
Then he ramps up the theme in verse 5 by exhorting them to have in themselves the mind of Christ. That the mind set of Christ Jesus (verse 6) who was (NOT GOD but rather…) in the FORM OF GOD, did not consider trying to be EQUAL TO GOD…
Andrew… Is this verse suggesting in any way that Jesus Christ WAS GOD?
Can any FORM OF GOD be different FROM GOD? Even with the trinitarian mis-translation that Jesus ‘Did not consider it ROBBERY to be GRASPING onto being GOD’, it makes no sense to say there was Jesus Christ who GOD, or in a form of God but did not think it worthy to be EQUAL TO GOD…
Either Jesus WAS GOD, as trini’s falsely claim, or he WAS NOT. Paul has shown clearly previously that ‘GOD’ was The Father and Jesus was ‘Lord’. Clearly then Paul is not suddenly suggesting in verse 6 that Jesus Christ was something he previously nor afterwards ever claimed to be.
Paul knew from his first ever encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus that Christ Jesus was an extreme spiritual person with powers above the norm of an everyday jew (remember that there were many other religious orders such as the Greeks and Egyptians who also claimed to have powers of their gods…but none were like Jesus Christ!)
So this ‘Form of God’ was nothing to do with ‘being GOD’ but rather the exhibiting of such power and authority. Jesus Christ, Paul says, did not try to BE GOD, as others in their religious sects believed themselves to be, ‘…but rather…’ (important words that trinitarians cannot deny) ‘…made himself of no reputation…taking the FORM OF… a bondservant and coming in the likeness/appearance of men’
Can God ‘make himself of no reputation (typical trinity translation: ‘Emptied himself’, can God ‘EMPTY HIMSELF’?)
What exactly is ‘FORM OF A BONDSERVANT’?
Was Jesus Christ only ‘appearing’ to be the ‘likeness of men’?
So now, Jesus Christ is NEITHER GOD nor MAN??
And then this individual gave himself up to death – for what cause? Scriptures tells us that the blood of a guiltless MAN was required to save mankind from eternal death.
And ‘death on the cross’… Andrew, did you know that death on the cross (representative of a tree…!) was THE MOST HUMILIATING away a Jew could die – ‘Cursed is a man who is hung on a tree’. The Romans knew this and used it to humiliate not only the man but also the family of the man. Sedition was a fearful worry for the Romans and they had to try to quell it.
But verse 9 tells of ‘GOD’ highly exalting this Jesus.
Trinitarians insist that Jesus was GOD – so in what way was ‘Jesus-God’ exalted …by himself (God)!? To sit next to himself (God)?!
Paul ends this section in verse 11 by again affirming the distinction between ‘GOD’ – the Father, and Jesus Christ, the ‘Lord’.
The summary of this is that the APOSTLES were to behave as Christ behaved – that they were endowed with great power and authority by their anointment of the Holy Spirit – AS WAS CHRIST – and they too were ‘in a form of God’ (as in that they had a level of power and authority over creation: see the gifts of the holy spirit’) and that they should not abuse that power and authority (reiterating verse 3 and others)February 10, 2017 at 5:11 pm #818643
“Ah, skipping questions that can only result in revealing and affirming trinity fallacies…” Your questions bother me not at all but as you say they are a way to distract from the topic and avoid the real question of “in the form of God” and what Paul is saying about Jesus. I’m not interested right now with what trins think,but what Paul thinks.
The point of Paul’s exhortation on have this attitude in you as was also in Christ Jesus is humbling ourselves and being obedient servants. He uses Christ as an example and his summation to the church is in vs 12 is “so then my brethren as you have always obeyed…”
But what he says about Christ is something neither you,I or Paul could do because we are not Jesus Christ and neither can any of us have a name above any other name. So what did Christ do according to Paul? Christ “in the form of God” emptied himself,laid down his privileges,taking the form of a bond-servant.
“Can God ‘make himself of no reputation (typical trinity translation: ‘Emptied himself’, can God ‘EMPTY HIMSELF’?)’ perhaps not,but can a preexistent Christ do this? perhaps,and that is what Paul appears to be saying. “Was Jesus Christ only ‘appearing’ to be the ‘likeness of men’?” that is a good question to ask Paul since Paul claims Christ was made in the likeness of men and that Christ found himself in appearance as a man.
So how can Christ be made in the likeness of men and find himself in appearance as a man unless his likeness and appearance was something else previous. So what might his previous likeness and appearance be but “in the form of God“. It’s not that difficult to see Paul believes in Christ’s preexistence.February 10, 2017 at 11:48 pm #818644
Sorry to interrupt, but of Course Christ pre-existed. Who would know but him, God, and those who know or knew him, so just ASK him!February 11, 2017 at 12:22 am #818645
Andrew, how did you suddenly turn on the ‘pre-existent christ’ pipe?
Jesus is a man born as an holy sinless human in the manner of the first man, Adam. This Jesus was empowered by the anointing of the Holy Spirit of the Father and carried out many things classed by the people of the time as ‘Miracles’ – but Jesus told the disciples that it was NOT HIM that was doing these things but the Father in him (The power of the Holy Spirit).
Jesus even went on to say: ‘These things you see me do, YOU TOO will also do likewise, in fact you will do GREATER THINGS THAN THESE!’.
Whatever you say, and no matter how you say it, you are upholding the trinity fallacy that Jesus was Almighty God ‘in a flesh body’….!
Andrew, I know you TRY to distance yourself from trinitarians but it haunts you.
JW? They believe that Jesus was pre-existent as an angel? They believe that which you said, aka the true saying of Paul in Phil 2 that Jesus had the power of God but WAS NOT GOD.
And who IS GOD? God is ONE PERSON: the Father. This was the full and complete belief of the Jews and the full and complete belief of Jesus Christ who put in so succinctly that trinitarians are blown away except for their obstinate nature, ‘This means [everlasting] life that they [the believers] know you [father], THE ONLY TRUE GOD…’.
Throughout Jesus’ short 3.5 years of time as the Servant of God and man, he ALWAYS prayed to his Father concerning the use of the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was therefore a channel through which the Father fulfilled his works – Jesus was a fully willing instrument in his father’s works: ‘Not my will but the will of him who sent me’.February 11, 2017 at 12:36 am #818646
Further, I asked, and I got a ‘yes’. and this:
7 As they went away, Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 8 What then did you go out to see? A manb dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings’ houses. 9 What then did you go out to see? A prophet?c Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet.10 This is he of whom it is written,
“‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’
11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence,d and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear,e let him hear.February 11, 2017 at 11:27 am #818647
“Andrew, how did you suddenly turn on the ‘pre-existent christ’ pipe?” I wonder how Paul did? for it appears he certainly did and people have got the same idea from Paul in this passage for centuries. Were there Christians in Paul’s time that would disagree with him on Christ’s preexistence? Of course there were just like some do today,and you seem to be one.
I don’t have any set theology anymore or belong to any sect so I’m free to try and see what the biblical authors were saying with no need to force them to agree with me or each other.
“Whatever you say, and no matter how you say it, you are upholding the trinity fallacy that Jesus was Almighty God ‘in a flesh body’….!” does Paul say anything in this passage about Trinity? I don’t see that,but acknowledge the fact that he believes in the preexistence of Christ and many non trin Christians do too,because of this passage and others.February 11, 2017 at 12:00 pm #818648
“Sorry to interrupt, but of Course Christ pre-existed. Who would know but him, God, and those who know or knew him, so just ASK him!”
No need to apologize and glad to see you ! There’s not been many here lately. Please feel free to join the conversation.
11 Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence,d and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear,e let him hear.
Mia do you think it possible that as Christ who was in the form of God and was incarnated in the form of man,so too Elijah may have been reincarnated in the form of John the Baptist? Is that perhaps what you are hearing? he that hath ears…let him hearFebruary 11, 2017 at 12:24 pm #818649
Thanks you Andrew.
Yes I do believe it is possible for someone to come back, in a *way* reincarnated as someone else… or thier spirit lives on after their death (such as Elijah’s)… and then Elijah’s spirit is reborn into the form of John the Baptist.
When Christ says he was with God, in the bosom of God, I certainly believe this to be true. Then his spirit was reborn (“reincarnated”), as Jesus, and then he returned to the Father.February 11, 2017 at 12:28 pm #818650
And the pre-existent Christ was the closest to God. Therefore, ‘no man has ever seen God, but the one and only son, he has made him known’. Jesus did exactly what God had shown him, therefore ‘he who has seen the son has seen the Father’.February 11, 2017 at 2:58 pm #818651
The reference to Elijah was towards the coming Christ who, like elijah, would perform many miracles including raising the dead…
Jesus was NOT THE FIRST to raise a dead person back to life… By the way, Elisha also did the same…
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