In the form of

This topic contains 25 replies, has 3 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of Jael Jael 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #818588
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    A fantastical trinitarian fallacy refers to Jesus as ‘being IN THE FORM OF God’ and apparently this is supposed to mean that Jesus WAS ALMIGHTY GOD.

    This ‘Almighty God’ then decided ‘HE DIDNT THINK BEING GOD WAS WORTHY TO GRASPING FOR’ (Strange wording seems to imply Jesus was reaching out toward and in an attempt to take hold of …being God…oops, isn’t that what Satan tried to do…? but nonetheless can you imagine Almighty God ‘GRASPING’ for what he IS?) and would rather be IN THE FORM OF a bond servant.

    Incredible as it seems, they also seem to think that the Holy Spirit was a common dove found everywhere in the regions of Palestine, Syria, Israel, Jordan, …the Middle East. Why? Because the Holy Spirit ‘alighted on Jesus’ shoulder IN THE FORM OF a dove.’

    It seems silly since everyone IMAGINES they know what ‘IN THE FORM OF’ means …until you ask them to explain. At this point they start stammering and stuttering and disingenuous words start to fill the air.

    So, just what is ‘The Form of a bondservant’? What does a bond servant look like? Is a bond servant human, animal, spirit?

    And is the Holy Spirit really a DOVE?

    Then what is THE FORM OF GOD? And why would Jesus be GRASPING FOR IT if it is true what trinitarians say that he WAS [already] GOD. And why would God think being God was ‘NOT WORTHY’?

    What DOES ‘In the Form Of’ mean? Apply your reply to appropriate scriptures, please.

    #818596
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    I’ve never heard of anyone who thought the Holy Ghost was just a common dove,but if God can appear as a dove,then surely he can also appear as a man as it’s taught in St John-even God clothed in human flesh.

    #818597
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Andrew, where are you living? Which world, I mean!!

    Have you not seen Pentecostal literature? Art work depicting the holy spirit as a dove?

    And you want to debate on Christian belief?

    #818599
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    Sure I’ve seen artwork depicting such,but that’s not to say the artist,or any believers I’ve ever heard of believe the Spirit became a literal dove.

    And even if I had never seen this artwork,what would that have to do with our bible discussions?

    And btw just who saw the Spirit descend on Jesus in the form of a dove?

    #818601
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Andrew, your points of discussion suggests to me that you are not a worthy nor credible Christian debator.

     

    #818604
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    Jael, your points tell me you’re not worthy and certainly not credible by accusing trinitarians of things they don’t believe,such as believing the Holy ghost became a fleshly bird. And also that Jesus grasped to be God, in Philippians 2 and the stupid question of why would God grasp to be what he is? The whole point of Phil. 2:6-8 is Jesus humbling himself to become a man; the form of God is contrasted with the form of a servant. It says Jesus didn’t grasp to be  equal to God,but rather humbled himself to be an obedient man,thus God exalted him to a higher place than he held previous, even the place of God himself. Phil 2:9-11

    And just what world are you from? You come on here with fantastical posts demeaning others falsely and claim to be scriptural while twisting scriptures to fit your religious agenda. Such as saying begotten in John means adopted which it doesn’t. I understand where you get that idea from but forcing that on John is disingenuous.

    Do you really want to discuss/debate scripture or just make rants with the hope that everybody agrees with you?

    #818606
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    “What DOES ‘In the Form Of’ mean? Apply your reply to appropriate scriptures, please.”

    So at Jesus baptism the Holy Ghost appears “in the form” of a dove. I venture to say that means appearance or shape and even nature in the sense of “gentle as doves”

    In Philippians 2  Paul writes who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

    In the form of here could mean likeness,appearance,fashion,shape,status and nature. But what say ye oh worthy one?

     

    #818608
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Andrew, you ‘Have a form of godliness’ but not the observational wit to follow it through.

    To wit:

    1) I did not say the Holy Spirit BECAME anything. I said that it is what religious cults like Pentecostal portray it as.

    2) You claim I misrepresent trinitarians but it is clear you have absolutely no real idea about this specific Christian cult. You say you say oh have seen paintings of the Holy Spirit as a dove but fail to research any further for fear of seeing the truth despite this extremely obvious truth.

    3) You show little regard for the truth of the scriptures despite actually (amazingly) properly quoting the truth of Philippians. Jesus truly WAS NOT GOD but rather was endowed humanly with the POWER OF GOD… Anointed WITH the Holy Spirit IN FULL at his baptism. Thence a voice from heaven (the father) spoke (in a voice of thunder) saying ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased’ This was to reflect the Old Testament verse : ‘I have found my david’.

    4) Doyou know what trinitarians believe? I think not else you would not worthlessly challenge me on this matter.

    Effectively, Your retorts are naive and full of anger towards the truth just as the Jews were to jrsus when he showed them the truth of their false learnings (and teachings).

    Sorry Andrew but you will do better when you find AND REMAIN in the truth.

    #818611
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    Jael,

    To wit:  “1) I did not say the Holy Spirit BECAME anything. I said that it is what religious cults like Pentecostal portray it as.” But you did say trins think the Holy Spirit became a fleshly bird,you didn’t single out certain pentecostals in your opening post. -“A fantastical trinitarian fallacy“-

    “Incredible as it seems, they also seem to think that the Holy Spirit was a common dove found everywhere in the regions of Palestine, Syria, Israel, Jordan, …the Middle East. Why? Because the Holy Spirit ‘alighted on Jesus’ shoulder IN THE FORM OF a dove.’-“And is the Holy Spirit really a DOVE?”

    2) “You claim I misrepresent trinitarians but it is clear you have absolutely no real idea about this specific Christian cult. You say you say oh have seen paintings of the Holy Spirit as a dove but fail to research any further for fear of seeing the truth despite this extremely obvious truth.

    And what is the “extremely obvious truth” you are here referring to? I’ve been a trin and a pentecostal but am no longer,and I’ve studied the trinity doctrine and it was T8’s article/writing on this site that really helped me and opened my eyes. http://heavennet.net/writings/the-trinity-doctrine/.

    And what is wrong with the artwork that portrays the Holy Spirit in the image of a dove? the artwork isn’t just Pentecostal btw. It’s the bible that gives us that portrayal and Luke’s account specifically says Lk 3:22 And the Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him.

    3) You show little regard for the truth of the scriptures despite actually (amazingly) properly quoting the truth of Philippians. Jesus truly WAS NOT GOD but rather was endowed humanly with the POWER OF GOD… Anointed WITH the Holy Spirit IN FULL at his baptism. Thence a voice from heaven (the father) spoke (in a voice of thunder) saying ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased’ This was to reflect the Old Testament verse : ‘I have found my david’.

    And what regard for truth do you show by falsely accusing your brethren? You try to expose their ignorance but only expose your own. And their is no “voice of thunder ” in any of the accounts of Jesus baptism.I think you’re culling that from John.

     

    #818615
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Andrew, your time spent with trinitarians and Pentecostalists has served you well in ingratiating their disingenuous ways.

    The most dangerous type of person is one like yourself who speaks the truth out if one side of his mouth and slips in a lie from the other side.

    You don’t even know how to present your case with your own experience.

    Re-read what I said, then what you said, what I said and what you just said above.

    Now read the baptism of Jesus in JOHN  where it says ‘…some thought it thundered…’. God’s voice is not a human voice clearly discernible. This ‘thunder’ phenomenon is reflected in other scriptures where God speaks in the hearing of a crowd.

    And you will see that trini’s and Pente’s try to suggest the Holy Spirit alighted on Jesus ‘IN THE FORM OF A DOVE’…(YES…the truth IS that the Holy Spirit alighted on Jesus IN THE MANNER of a DOVE; that is, ‘With a light fluttering, a gently wind, with softness and gentleness’…contrasted with the manner of itself to the Apostles at Pentecost….

    Strange, why do PENTECOSTAL (etc) portray the Holy Spirit AS A DOVE when the Holy Spirit AT PENTECOST was ‘TONGUES OF FIRE’…. Ooops, eh!!!

     

    Before your unwise intervention, was my point of contention: ‘Was the Holy Spirit an actual Dove if ‘In the form of’ means that ‘Jesus in the form of God’ means Jesus WAS ACTUALLY GOD?)

    #818618
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    Jael,

    “Now read the baptism of Jesus in JOHN  where it says ‘…some thought it thundered…’. God’s voice is not a human voice clearly discernible. This ‘thunder’ phenomenon is reflected in other scriptures where God speaks in the hearing of a crowd.” – There is no baptismal account of Jesus in John,and Jn 12:29 where “some said it thundered” has nothing to do with baptism,which is why I said you culled that from John. In the baptismal accounts from the synoptics it doesn’t say anyone saw the shape or heard the voice but Jesus.

    Trust me that Pentecostals identify much more with the “mighty rushing wind” and “tongues of fire” than the dove because they are Pentecostal and speak in tongues. No “oops” about it!  And most all Christians/Christian denominations portray the Spirit as a dove from Jesus baptism and why is that a big deal to you? Go to any Christian bookstore and you can get necklaces,t-shirts,coffee cups,bible covers with doves on them,just like with crosses.There’s a good chance the store may even have a dove on it’s storefront.The dove is just a symbol of Christianity like the cross is. And not all Pentecostals are trins btw, some are very anti-trin even.

    So what cult or sect are you involved with? I can’t help but get the feeling you’ve had or have a very sheltered life or religious life.

    And as to the passage in Phil 2-“in the form of God” contrasted with” the form of a servant ” I don’t think Paul saw Jesus as God the Father becoming a man,but he did see the preexistent Jesus humbling himself to become a man. So what does “in the form of God” here mean? There can of course be many ideas based on one’s preconceived theologies,but from this passage alone it seems clear that Jesus”in the form of God” wasn’t God or a being equal to God.

    I understand what you were getting at in your opening post,that if Jesus here was already God or equal to God then why would he not already consider himself as such? The passage plainly point’s out he didn’t consider himself God but did have a God like status and thus humbled himself-made himself of no reputation,and took on the form of a servant in the likeness of men.

    What do you think about it? I find it a very interesting passage Phil 2:4-11 and am willing to discuss it further.

     

    #818619
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Ummm, Andrew, I don’t think you could count me as someone who has led a sheltered life where the Scripture did concerned… It would be (pointlessly) interesting to hear why you think that if me…since it is you who (firstly) claimed that you did not know that trinitarians and others pointedly portray the Holy Spirit as an actual dove. I see you wised up now and admit that such a portrayal is ALL OVER THE PLACE, religiously and literaturely… YOU are all over the place yourself, at one moment discounting what I said by ALTERING what I said, and in another moment counting what I said.

    I AGREE that TRINITARIANS (deliberately) try to make the anointing of Christ appear as though an actual dove was seen to slight on Jesus…hence the portrayal and adoption of a dove in their depictions of the ‘so-called GODHEAD’, three ‘PERSONS’ who are ‘GOD…yet one is a DOVE!!

    Moreover, WHERE IS GOD the person if there are three persons who are HIM?

    And doesn’t scriptures say NOT to portray anything that resides (spiritually) in heaven? Oh dear!!!

    Ok, back to ‘IN THE FORM OF’.

    Andrew, in your time with trinitarians and Pentecostals, are you saying you were not taught by them that ‘Jesus, although he was IN THE FORM OF GOD, did not think it to GRASP ONTO BEING GOD…but INSTEAD humbled himself …..etc etc’?

    Andrew, do trini’s and their cult spin offs not teach this false ediction of Phil 2?

    Andrew, this is where you confuse me… You RIGHTLY state that Jesus was ENDOWED WITH THE POWER OF GOD but then make a H U G E mistake by claiming Jesus had a ‘GOD STATUS’…. NO NO NO…. Andrew… WRONG WRONG WRONG…!!!!

    The scriptures replicates itself…. Andrew, THREE REPRESENTATIVE INCIDENTS….from scriptures:

    1) Joseph in Egypt, was EMPOWERED BY PHAROAH. The SIGNET RING of PHAROAH is equivalent to the HOLY SPIRIT of God… Joseph was NOT PHAROAH even though he HAD THE POWER OF PHAROAH.

    2) The book of Esther outlines a similar event where a Jew named Mordecai was given the signet ring of the King to create an edict to save the life of the Jews. Mordecai, although endowed with the POWER OF THE KING (again, the signet ring was the equivalent of the Holy Spirit of God)… was NOT THE KING.

    3) Phil 2… Jesus WAS NOT GOD (nor had GOD STATUS!!!!) which CONFOUNDS the trinitarian view that Jesus was half God and half man… Yes, the trini’s got that from the Greeks, Romans (who stole it from the Greeks) and the Egyptians mythologies). Even stranger that each half didn’t know about the other half which is why trini’s and Reid ilk find it hard to explain how Jesus was supposed to have ‘Emptied himself’ yet remained 100% the same as before he ’emptied himself’… by ADDING humanity to his (trinity claimed) ‘GOD STATUS’ when scriptures clearly tells us that ‘GOD CANNOT LOOK UPON SIN’… (Arrgghhh, I get carried away with debunking trinity claims because they are so obvious!)

    Phil 2 starts by telling us that we should humble ourselves in the same way Christ Jesus did… This refers to thing like …putting yourself last … Serving those who are under you (Yes, a great master SERVES his servants… explain how) … Not abusing your power and position … Being compassionate in certain situations to those even whom are not yours … Acknowledging that there is/are those who are GREATER THAN YOU.

    So Jesus ‘in the form of’ God, does not mean Jesus WAS GOD. Glad we agree on that otherwise things would get very difficult for anyone who tried to justify the Holy Spirit being seen ‘in the form of a dove’, and then say the Holy Spirit is ‘a person’.

    #818622
    Profile photo of AndrewAD AndrewAD 
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    No I don’t agree with you,and showed you plainly how you accused others of believing the holy spirit became an actual bird. And again I’ve never heard of anyone who thinks that. The dove is symbolic and there is nothing wrong with symbols. And does a dove reside in heaven? I don’t think so. Is God a sun and a shield? I don’t think so but the bible says that too. Ps 84:11

    Yes some people -trins and others,have a problem with the passage in Phil that we’re discussing.The problem being,as you pointed out, they see “in the form of God” as Jesus being fully God,so when he emptied himself or made himself of no reputation to become a man,it’s apparent he had to put aside his divinity.So if he did that then how can he still be God while on earth? Of course there are various explanations for this.

    But yes this verse shows clearly that “in the form of God” does mean a special status,otherwise he would not have to”empty” himself to take the form of a bond-servant and be made in the likeness of men.  If he was always just a man then why did he have to humble himself to be made one?

    Your examples of Joseph and Mordecai do typify a representative but the verse in Phil 2 implies Jesus had divine status-“in the form of God” prior to becoming a humble representative.

     

     

    #818628
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Andrew, I see that attempting to walk the fence over trini et al belief is causing much anxiety and frustration in you.

    Once again you try to deflect the argument over how trini’s see their so-called ‘Third Person of the trinity’ Who is lorded and worshipped AS A DOVE by claiming that I said IT ‘BECAME A BIRD (Dove)’ when I patently did not say any such thing.

    Andrew, why do you confuse and lamefully try to say is aid what I did not say? Why, because you cannot simply agree that such portrayals are both ungodly and uncreditable?

    Move on man and stop blowing into the wind: truth will not change no matter how you try to discredit it.

    Say no more that I said the Holy Spirit ‘became’ a dove (a bird). Stick to the truth that ‘The Holy Spirit ofgodakightedon Jesus’ shoulder IN THE MANNER of aDove: that is, with a flutter like a gentle, light breeze – contrasted with the Apostles where IT appeared in the manner of raging winds and tongues of fire.

    Of course, the question then is why these unwarranted portrayals of a Dove as God the third, convinced a group to call themselves PENTECOSTALISTS when a Dove was not in ANY KIND OF scenario DURING PENTECOST (answer is obvious of course!) Why not call themselves ‘Dovians’ for the time Jesus was anointed WITH IT?

    Andrew, you say that there are many explanations … but you fail to show any. How am I to understand the mind of a fallacious belief when you show no evidence at all. I guess you looked and equally found them all unbelievable and unsupported from Scriptures ((NOT THE TRINITY CREED!!)

    And so, ‘Special Status’… Jesus WAS JUST A MAN… You even show by your own words from Phil 2 that Jesus humbled himself as a Bondservant but as a man born in the manner of Adam, YES, a kind of ‘status’ as a man born holy – without sin. If ‘position’ as such and ‘status’ are the same in your view then perhaps you are right.

    However, Jesus had to PROVE HIMSELF by being tempted to sin IN THE SAME MANNER AS ADAM. Only AFTER proving himself and DYING for the sins of Adam (and consequently All Mankind) did Almighty God RAISE HIM UP TO A POSITION ABOVE HIS BRETHREN…

    SCRIPTURES says, ‘He was made a little lower than the Angels’…

    Jesus WAS MORTAL … But is NOW IMMORTAL.

    Andrew, show me what scriptures says about jesus’ status before God almighty raised him up?

    ‘Son of God’? Jesus says ‘many holy men in the past were called “GOD” by almighty God…’ Yet NO TRINI ET ALL ever seems to quote that verse for fear of suicidely washing away their trinity claims. Jesus even went on to say that ‘I ONLY called myself “son of God”‘ which is to say, ‘Holy, sinless, and doing what the Father sent me to do’ –

    ANYONE, EVERYONE …scriptures says, …who does these thing faithfully and spiritually, IS A SON OF GOD…

    God almighty, at Jesus’ baptism, did not confer a higher ‘Status’ on Jesus at that time but rather only said, ‘This is my son in whom I am well pleased!’.

    Blessing someone for being righteous does not raise their ‘status’… It shows only what the OTHERS should be aspiring to be like.

    JESUS, you proudly state, humbled himself to serve his fellow man. Even though he had on his shoulders and in his hands the power of the almighty spirit of God bestowed on him just ax Joseph and modecaih had such powers and authority placed on them – were they ALSO higher status? I see you lightly brush off the indicators I showed you saying ‘Jesus was DIVINE’ unlik Joseph… which shows you are just copying from trinitarian ideology and drawing away in your confused state from the truth that you know:

    Show me a scripture from the Christian bible that says Jesus was ‘DIVINE… I bet you do not even know what the word ‘Divine’ means but just using it because it seems like a good word…

    ‘Divine’ please, and not from TRINITY belief BUT SCRIPTURES…

    Thanks, Andrew.

    #818629
    Profile photo of Jael Jael 
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    Andrew, I came across something you said, and I guess you also believe: back in February 3rd you said about ‘God clothed in human flesh.’

    Do you seriously believe ALMIGHTY GOD can be ‘Clothed in human flesh’? Or were you just straining at posting an uncleverly disguised untruth touted by trinitarians?

    Can the ALMIGHTY GOD be contained in a clearly highly limited body? Isn’t this belief the stuff of Greek mythology?

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