How the Lake of Fire and the Second Death Brings Salvation

This topic contains 110 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 3 weeks, 1 day ago.

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  • #833724
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony:

    You: Hi truthcomber I just don’t believe that Jesus Christ come back to earth where He was created. I don’t believe that Jesus was created. God bless.

    Me:
    I will transfer this question to the thread where it is more appropriate forum:

    The Creations of Genesis 1 & 2 and John 1

    Please initiate your evidence. We can go verse by verse.

     

     

    #833737
     Anthony 
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    Hi truthcomber

    You said

    Hi Anthony,

     

    Yes, Christ had to first ascend into heaven where he is there temporarily before he returns to earth where he was created.  He will rule the earth from Jerusalem.  His father will be here also.

    Sorry if I’m reading this wrong   but it looks like  you where saying when Jesus returns  to earth again .( Second coming) .

    Yes, Christ had to first ascend into heaven where he is there temporarily before he returns to earth where he was created.  

    Did I get your train of thought wrong some how, if so I apologize.

    God bless.

    #833738
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    It is important to understand that there are two types of God’s Elect who will enter Christ’s Millennial Kingdom. There are God’s Elect, the few 144,000 Firstfruits, predestined to be saved before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. They will enter the Millennial Kingdom in their saved immortal glorified spirit bodies. They are the resurrected Bride of Christ, who will be resurrected in the First Resurrection, after the 3½ years of the Tribulation, when the sign of the returning Jesus Christ appears in heaven, at the start of the one-year Great Tribulation period.

    The other type of God’s Elect are the many a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues’ (Revelation 7:9)

    A Multitude from the Great Tribulation

    After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

    f the Great Tribulation. They are predestined to be saved after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, during the Millennial Kingdom of God. Therefore, they will enter the Millennial Kingdom of God in their not yet saved, mortal fleshly bodies. The sub-section entitled ‘The Survivors: Elect Gentile Sheep

    God has determined, right from the foundation of the world, that there will be three distinct groups of survivors of the Great Tribulation who will enter the Millennial Kingdom in their fleshly bodies. These are Elect Jews, Elect Gentiles (the Sheep) and non-Elect Gentiles (the Goats). God bless

    #833739
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    Hosea 1:10

    10 “Yet the number of the children of Israel
    Shall be as the sand of the sea,
    Which cannot be measured or numbered.
    And it shall come to pass
    In the place where it was said to them,
    ‘You are [e]not My people,’
    There it shall be said to them,
    You are sons of the living God.’

    Rev.7:9   After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their      hands

    #833740
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    ´s final judgement of all unbelieving humanity in the Lake of Fire and the Second Death.

    The Great White Throne Judgement Age is the Sixth Age in God’s Plan for All, which He is working out in seven biblical ages. This Sixth Age will be ushered in immediately at the end of the thousand-year Millennial Kingdom of God. The whole population of the Millennial world, billions of people who will be alive at the end of the glorious thousand-year Millennial Kingdom of God, will be prepared and looking forward to God ushering in the Great White Throne Judgement Age, as prophesied in the Bible.

    There are two important events, which will take place simultaneously at the end of the thousand-year Millennial Kingdom, before the Great White Throne Judgement Age begins. These events are the Second Resurrection and the release of Satan from his prison.

    #833741
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    The First Group will consist of many billions of people, all unbelievers; all of the unbelievers who will have ever lived throughout the ages, from Adam and Eve until the end of the Millennial Age.

    What about the multiple millions of unborn babies who die every year by either abortion or miscarriage? Life begins at conception. We can be sure that all unborn babies will also be included in the group of unbelievers.

    The Second Group will also consist of many billions of people, but they are all believers; all of the believers who will have lived in their mortal fleshly bodies during Christ’s glorious Millennial Age. This group includes all of the people who will still be alive in their mortal fleshly bodies at the end of the Millennial Age, and who will change in the ‘twinkling of an eye’ from their mortal fleshly bodies into their resurrected immortal bodies, at the Second Resurrection.

    The Bible speaks about the resurrection of the dead, and there is no doubt that all people will be resurrected in immortal bodies in the Second Resurrection. An important question we need to ask and clearly answer is, ‘When these billions of people, both believers and unbelievers, are resurrected in their immortal bodies, will they have immortal spirit bodies that can freely move, or will they have immortal fleshly bodies that have restricted movement?’

    Before we answer this question, we need to understand and keep in mind the clear distinction between the First Resurrection and the Second Resurrection.

    The First Resurrection happens at the return of Jesus Christ, a thousand years before the Second Resurrection. The First Resurrection is only for those relatively very few people who are God’s Elect, the Bride of Christ, the 144,000 Firstfruits. The Bible is very clear that these Elect Saints of God, the Firstfruits, will rise in their new glorified immortal spirit bodies to join with Christ at His Second Coming and rule and reign with Him forever (Matthew 24:31, 1 Corinthians 15:49-58, Revelation 20:6).

    The Second Resurrection is different in that all people, both believers and unbelievers, will be resurrected in their immortal fleshly bodies and not in their immortal spirit bodies. The reason for this is because they have to first undergo God’s Great White Throne Judgement. An immortal fleshly body will be restricted in movement being confined to this earth and not free to move about like an immortal spirit body. However, the destiny of all people who rise in the Second Resurrection is not to remain in their immortal fleshly bodies forever but, through God’s judgement, to ultimately receive glorified immortal spirit bodies as sons of God.

    Based on the above truth, we can now understand the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 about the resurrection of the whole house of Israel in their immortal fleshly bodies.

    Ezekiel 37:6
    I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the LORD. 

    #833742
     Anthony 
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    Hi All

    Please understand that this will not be a resurrection like when Jesus Christ resurrected Lazarus from the dead, who was raised in his mortal fleshly body and later went on to die a fleshly death, once again.

    It is important to understand that it is God’s promise to bring all of the Israelites, the whole house of Israel, back into their own promised land of Israel, after God has resurrected them in their immortal fleshly bodies.

    Ezekiel 37:11-13
    11 Then He said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. They indeed say, ‘Our bones are dry, our hope is lost, and we ourselves are cut off!’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel’. 13 Then you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.

    This promise of God can only be fulfilled at the end of Christ’s thousand-year Millennial Kingdom, at the Second Resurrection, when the land of Israel will still be in the beautiful Millennial Garden of Eden state. With the exception of the Saints already risen in the First Resurrection, the whole house of Israel, both Jewish believers from the Millennial Kingdom and all unbelieving Jews who will have ever lived, will be brought back into their own land of Israel in their resurrected immortal fleshly bodies, as promised by God in Ezekiel 37 above.

    The Second Resurrection is when God’s Great White Throne Judgement takes place. The purpose of God’s judgement is for all people to come to know the Lord, ‘Then you shall know that I am the LORD’ as stated in Ezekiel 37:13 above.

    Have to go now, we’re having a fishing trip today. God bless.

     

    #833743
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Anthony. ..All the resurected will have flesh and bone bodies, just as Jesus even now has., Eph 5:30 “for we are bodies of his body, we are flesh of his flesh, we are bone of his bones”, says Paul. We are just spiritually regenerated by the spirit of God, not generated by the flesh as we are now. That is the only difference “for every hair on your head is numbered” and again , “for God has given it “us” a body just as he pleased”.

    Nothing changed in our bodies, except this mortal body must put on immortality , “it” is sown in weakness, “it” is raised in power, “it’ is sown a natural body, “it” is raised a spritually body (spritually generated) body. Notice the “it” is not done away wth, “it”, the same “it” is regenerated by the spirit of God, remade and brought forth again, the same as with the “whole” house of Israel. Spoken of in Ezekiel 37:6.

    Jesus said a spirit has no body, as he has,
    Luk 24:38 ….and he said unto them, Why are you troubled why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39..behold my hands and my feet that “it” is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit, HAS NOT FLESH AND BONE , as you see i have.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #833747
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony and All,

    Heb 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    Comment: Those in the OT trusted that God would seal them with the spirit of promise, that is the holy spirit with the human mind of Christ in it. This happened after Pentecost.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    Comment: The gentiles received the promise of the spirit also. Both groups receive this promise at Pentecost.

    #833748
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony and All

    Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

    Comment: A woman symbolizes a church. There are two woman above, one lukewarm and one on fire for the Lord.

    Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days…13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

    Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Comment: These saints above will escape the great tribulation.

    Verse 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Comment: This latter group of the church in verse 17 will suffer the tribulation

    #833749
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Anthony and All,

     

    Saints (both Jew and gentile) take precedence over the physical nation of Israel.

    1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Comment:

    Two groups of saints:
    Those alive in the body at coming
    Those dead in the body at coming

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls (heart and minds) of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Comment: Why should they of the tribulation be different from those beheaded  before the tribulation. It just happens that most will be in the great tribulation at the end.

    https://www.wake-up.org/144000/the-144000.html

    Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

    Me: these are sealed just before the messiah comes back at the end of  the tribulation.

    Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of
    Israel…9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Comment: All nations must include Israel. So there seems to be a conflict between verse 4 and verse 9. Also, not all the tribes are listed in Rev 7:4-8. Dan is missing. Further, vs 9 does not necessarily mean that it is not the same group as in verse 4.

    Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

    Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    Comment: The group above includes all saints of the OT and NT. Those redeemed from the earth doesn’t just mean at the time of Christ’s return, but from Genesis to Revelation. Songs (5603. ódé) can and do mean songs of praise:

    Christ: 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

    To the Jews:
    Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

    To the Gentiles:

    Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

    Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Comment: So is Rev 7:5-9 symbolic of verse 9? Why would the Jews whom had to go through the tribulation found worthy of special treatment? They went through the tribulation because they were not spiritual enough then to escape it.

    Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

    Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

    Comment: So “firsfruits” of the spirit pertains to the church, not just the Jews.

    http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/meaning-of-numbers-in-bible/12.html

    Twelve can be found in 187 places in God’s word. Revelation alone has 22 occurrences of the number. The meaning of 12, which is considered a perfect number, is that it symbolizes God’s power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation.  

    So, I purpose that the 144,00 are symbolic of the great multitude and are one and the same.

    #833750
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,

    Every plant not planted by my Heavenly Father will be uprooted.

    Mt 15

    #833751
     Anthony 
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    Hi truthcomber and All

    You said

    Saints (both Jew and gentile) take precedence over the physical nation of Israel.

    1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Comment:

    Two groups of saints:
    Those alive in the body at coming
    Those dead in the body at         coming.

    To me this speaks of the first fruits made up of Jews and Gentiles , during the present age.Jesus Christ being the first. He was a type of the spring harvest . The Jews and Gentiles  the firstfruits, a type of the fall harvest. This is just a remnant of the Jews and Gentiles. All of Israel will be saved and all Gentiles, by the time The Lord Jesus Christ turn the kingdom over to His Father.

     

     

    #833752
     Anthony 
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    Hi truthcomber and All

    As far as the souls under the alter.

    The following passage in the book of Revelation is often cited in support of the belief that people are created with an immortal soul that survives in a conscious state after death:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Here you seemingly have John the revelator observing the conscious living immortal souls of martyred Christians in direct conversation with the Lord. Oddly enough, though, these “souls” are seen under an altar. Where this altar is, is not openly stated, but the assumption by those who believe in an immortal soul is that this altar must be in the heavenly temple of God. For example:

    “(1.) Where he saw them— under the altar; at the foot of the altar of incense, in the most holy place; he saw them in heaven, at the foot of Christ.”.

    Why the martyrs are described as being “under the altar”. Obviously, if this assumption is true, the altar of incense in heaven must be extremely large in order for thousands of martyrs to be there.  That would be a literal interpretation, and makes about as much sense as all the dead saints literally going to Abraham’s bosom (Luke 16:22), but Revelation is a book full of symbols.

    The First Martyr: Abel

    As a point of reference, it will be helpful to look first at the biblical account of the first martyr, Abel:

    Gen 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
    Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
    Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
    Gen 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;

    Abel’s blood, not Abel himself, cried out to the Lord. Clearly this did not happen in a literal sense. Abel’s shed blood cried out from the ground to the Lord symbolically, for justice to be done, for his blood to be avenged, just like in Rev 6:10.

    Nephesh

    The book of Leviticus give us some interesting information about blood:

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    It is the Hebrew word nephesh that gives us the key:

    Lev 17:11 For the life [H5315 nephesh] of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: [H5315 nephesh] for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul [H5315 nephesh].

    The word nephesh occurs three times in that verse, and it is translated lifesouls, and soul. So it would be just as proper to translate the verse as follows:

    Lev 17:11 For the soul of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Nephesh, according to Strong’s dictionary, also has the meaning of breath, so this is also valid:

    Lev 17:11 For the breath of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    Now as most people will probably recognize, that is a medically correct statement. The blood carries the oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. The body’s breath is literally carried in the blood! So this verse draws a parallel between breath, soul, and blood. They are, in effect, synonymous in this case. Note this Messianic prophecy in Isaiah:

    Isa 53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul [H5315 nephesh] unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    Since the life is in the blood (Lev 17:11), it was Jesus’ blood that was poured out unto death at the cross.

    Psuche

    The word translated “souls” in Revelation 6:9 in the Greek ispsuche, G5590 in Strong’s dictionary, which also has the meaning of life or breath. Since we have concluded that the blood carries the life and breath in Leviticus 17:11, and life, breath, soul, and blood are synonymous in this case, the following is also a proper translation:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the blood of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on the itm that dwell on the earth?

    Now verses 9 and 10 are coherent. It is the shed blood of the martyrs that is seen “under the altar”, not immortal bodiless souls. Just as Abel’s blood cries out symbolically for justice to the Lord, so does the blood of the martyrs “under the altar”. God bless

    #833754
     Truthcomber 
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    Hi Nick,

    You quoted me:
    “Saints (both Jew and gentile) take precedence over the physical nation of Israel.
    1 Thes 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    Comment:
    Two groups of saints:
    Those alive in the body at his coming
    Those dead in the body at his coming.

    You responded:
    To me this speaks of the first fruits made up of Jews and Gentiles , during the present age.Jesus Christ being the first. He was a type of the spring harvest . The Jews and Gentiles the firstfruits, a type of the fall harvest.

    Me:
    Agree, I even put this in one of my discourse.

     

    You:
    This is just a remnant of the Jews and Gentiles.
    Me:
    This is all, Jew or Gentile that was born of the spirit and died in that state before the coming of the Messiah. Additionally, it includes all those alive in both body and spirit at the time the Messiah returns to earth. I do not know if you mean by “remnant”. If you mean only the saved from the time of Adam to the time of Christ’s return, then we both agree. But if you mean only those alive at the time Christ reappears, then we disagree. Please clarify.

    You: All of Israel will be saved and all Gentiles, by the time The Lord Jesus Christ turn the kingdom over to His Father.
    Me: Totally agree

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