Giving Heed to Doctrines of Devils

This topic contains 149 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 2 months ago.

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  • #825885
     Jodi 
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    Nick, once again I will state that I am not yet speaking about scripture that speaks of REAL unclean spirits, I am speaking of the scriptures that speak of fake ones. You are not discussing  the scriptures I gave of which speak of fake demons, why are you so bent on AVOIDING this??

    #825899
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    There are no FAKE DEMONS in scripture.

     

    #825901
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Why do you pursue your goal of sanitising scripture of the domain of darkness?

    Whom do you serve?

    #825907
     Jodi 
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    Nick explain how the below scripture is NOT informing us that false gods and their demons are the works of man’s hands and have no power?

    Revelation 9: 20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;

    Nick explain how the below scripture is NOT informing us that there existed doctrines of demons and they were nothing more than lies and fables?

    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;…7 But refuse profane and old wives’ fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

    Nick explain how the below scripture is NOT informing us that the people were warned not to follow false pagan practices where pagans made sacrifices to their fake gods?

    1 Corinthians 10: 20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.

    Nick I don’t think that you understand that the pagan’s demons mentioned above were believed to be both good and bad. They believed that some demons brought blessings and some brought cursing, the whole point of making sacrifices to these demons was so that it would please the demons and the people could be blessed and not cursed. To DRINK of the cup of these demons was to believe that they had the powers that God said He ALONE has, and you cannot believe that these demons are real and also believe that God is real.

    I am under the impression from you Nick that you believe that what the pagan’s sacrificed to was in fact real spirits, and likewise when Israel began to worship them they were real spirits, however not only are there many scriptures in the OT saying that they are the work of men’s hands and are fake the NT tells us that also. You seem to want to say that they were real, they just were not true gods, that they were rebel spirits deceiving people to believe in fake gods. This is NOT what the scriptures SAY!!

    Isaiah 41: 22 “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, 23 tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. 24 But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable…. 28 I look but there is no one— no one among the gods to give counsel, no one to give answer when I ask them. 29 See, they are all false! Their deeds amount to nothing; their images are but wind and confusion.

    1 Samuel 12: 21 Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless.

    Isaiah 19:1 A prophecy against Egypt: See, the LORD rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear. 2 “I will stir up Egyptian against Egyptian— brother will fight against brother, neighbor against neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom. 3 The Egyptians will lose heart, and I will bring their plans to nothing; they will consult the idols and the spirits of the dead, the mediums and the spiritists.

    The idols don’t literally tremble as we are told they are fake. I don’t think you realize Nick that the idols themselves made of wood, stone and brass, the people did not literally believe that those figurines they made were the actual gods and demons and spirits that they believed brought blessings or cursing, they were a REPRESENTATION of them. When God says do not worship idols, he is not talking about their carvings, He is talking about what those carvings represented, fake gods and their demons.

    Did you know Nick that the Jews believed as Zoroastrians did, that when a wicked person dies they could get stuck on earth and they would become demons inflicting people with things such as madness, blindness, muteness. Josephus wrote this very belief that demons were the souls of dead wicked people.  The Pharisees had many cleansing rituals, one of which was that these demons entered your body at night, when you rose up in the morning they would exit you except the ones in your fingertips, you would have to complete every morning a cleansing ritual with your hands in order to remove those final demons.

     

    #825908
     Jodi 
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    One huge problem you have Nick is that you are under the impression that scripture shows that demons manipulate you into sinning.

    Read every scripture that speaks of demons, and you will see there is NOT one verse that speaks of that which you say.

    What you will find in the passages that speak of demons is,

    Demons as in unclean spirit that cause infirmities, madness, blindness, muteness, etc..

    John and Jesus are accused of being demon -possessed, which we see in John 10 meant the people thought they were mad.

    Fake gods and fake demons that are the works of man’s hands.

    Fake god Beelzebul known in the OT as Baal, and his fake demons (I am looking forward to discussing this passage further)

    Note that this passage is in reference to believing in a false god spoken of in OT, where this god and his demons could bring blessings or cursings. The passage is about infirmities NOT about MANIPULATIONS to sin. 

    So we have NOT one scripture that says as you say about demons manipulating people to sin.

    Jeremiah 10: 8 But they are altogether brutish and foolish: the stock is a doctrine of vanities. 9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men. 10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation. 11 Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. 12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion. 13 When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures. 14 Every man is brutish in his knowledge: every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. 15 They are vanity, and the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.

    NOTICE NICK, the scripture says the false gods, like that of Beelzebub/Baal, have no breath in them, they are FAKE, and they are the WORK of ERROR, of which we are told in several other places that ERROR comes from their OWN imaginations, which equates to the ABSOLUTE OPPOSITE of being manipulated by spirits. God is having to tell the people that it is by His wrath the earth trembles, it is not by other gods. God has to announce that it is by Him there is wisdom, it is Him that produces the weather, as the people denoted such things as coming from demons. 

     

    #825912
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Yes men worship demons.

    And they worship idols made by their hands.

    But they are not said to worship fake demons made by their hands.

     

    Do not ignore the COMMA.

    Jots and tittles are written and we do not take away from scripture.

     

     

    #825917
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    I am sure you are mistaken when you say that

    DOCTRINES OF DEMONS

    means

    DOCTRINES ABOUT DEMONS.

     

    Son of God, Son of Man, sons of the devil, the Word of Life, The Spirit of God etc, would all have their meaning changed with such usage.

    #825996
     942767 
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    Hi Nick:

    Yes, Jesus declared all foods clean, but God stated that Pork is not food for His people.

    #826026
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick….I BELIEVE JODI IS RIGHT ON THIS ONE BROTHER. If we choose to do good, good will come, if evil, evil will come, because each thing good or evil adds to itself. If this is done by demons, going around taking us over, then how could God judge us for what something else is doing, some beings we can’t see or hear and has no part of us. No, We ourselves bring these thing on ourselves, through the “lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, throught the pride of life. Which all comes from this world. At least that is what seemed to happen in my life, i can’t blame it on something else, so i don’t have to take responsiblity for my faliures.

    I know that good and evil exist, it existed from the beginning of creation, at the very garden of eve, but it was man who was making his own choices from the start. There was a propensity in us to do both good and evil from the very start. I don’t see where scripture says demonic beings make us do evil, do you. We are told to flee d-evil, and ď-evil will flee from us. You see it’s us who chose to do evil or good, and what is influencing us the most drags us toward it, rather it is good or evil. We will give account of ourselve for what “we” do.

    Nick think about what Jodi is saying it perty much alines with scripture brother. IMO

    #826066
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Gene,

    Yes it is a very unpopular idea that man is a vessel that can contain unwelcome guests.

    But one of the major challenges for those who have been reborn from above is to springclean.

    Opening up all the dark and dusty rooms of our houses to the light as the sanctifying Spirit leads.

    Being transformed by the renewal of our minds can be one step too far for those who are vain and proud.

    #826078
     AndrewAD 
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    Hi Jodi,

    1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;     Why use this language if spirits/devils are not able to seduce or teach? To seduce is to be allured, tempted, enticed, charmed, ensnared etc.All of which the devil tried on Jesus. Now if he had given in could he or any of us when falling blame the devil? Of course not since it’s we who went along with it. Now to say that these teachings, whatever they may be are really myths,fables,and superstition or based on such may very well be the case.

    Is this scripture not saying that men would depart from the faith by believing in the fables and lies about demons that were invented by humans? No as I pointed out before and Nick has reiterated it’s not saying about demons but of/from demons. The profane and oldwives tales alluded to are not said to be about demons but rather their teachings which of course come through humans.

    As for 1 Cor: 10 Paul writes 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
    20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
    21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.
    22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

    Paul asks in vs19 is the idol anything or that which is sacrificed to idols anything? then he answers the question in the affirmative in vs20 by saying that which is sacrificed to idols is sacrificed to devils and by taking part in such you have fellowship with devils. Then in vs 22 he asks do we provoke the Lord to jealousy?

    Nowhere in the entire chapter is he saying the devils are fake but rather the opposite, the idols and their altars represent the devils just like the Christian communion of cup and bread represent Christ. And he adds the fear of God being jealous about this just like God was so jealous of the other gods in the OT stories.

     

     

     

    #826177
     GeneBalthrop 
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    AndrewAD……Remember it what the person himself is doing , not another creature, that Paul is talking about. Now if “I” DO of evil, by DOING something as worshiping or sacrificing to anything to a false God, as in the case of an Idol made by man , this is not a devil making me do that, but EVIL SPIRIT, IN ME DOING IT. DOESN’T EVERYTHING BOIL DOWN TO GOOD AND EVIL ITSELF, RIGHT?, SO IF EVIL OR UNCLEAN SPIRIT IS WORKING IN ME, THEN I AM DRIVEN TO DO EVIL, IF GOOD OR CLEAN SPIRIT IS WORKING IN ME THEN I AM DRIVEN TO DO GOOD. IT ALL COMES FROM WHATS WORKING “IN” ME .

    I AM A TREE AND IF “I” BEAR GOOD FRUIT THEN GOOD IS WORKING IN ME, and my GOD IS WITH ME, IF “Ì” BEAR CORRUPT FRUIT THEM CORUPTION, OR EVIL IS WORKING IN ME “I” AM CORUPT. THEREFORE HE SAYS “YOU”, make the tree good and its fruit good or corrupt (EVIL) and its fruit corrupt.” For every tree is known by “IT’S” FRUIT.

    I tend to agree with Jodi, it’s more about what “We” are doing then somekind of demonic beings going around jumping in and out of people, its more, us folling the way of evil or the good, and that is why “WE” are judged, according to “OUR” WORKS, not according to the works of some demonic creature taking us over,

    AndrewAD and Nick, give what Jodi has said more thought brothers.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #826178
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Gene,

    Was Jesus not speaking the truth when he taught about unclean spirits?

    Were the accounts not truthful about how he dealt with them?

    Do you agree with Jodi that this was all superstition?

    Only God is good but you think men can be?

     

    Foolish natural man is unaware of what influences his thoughts and his behaviours. He is like grass.

    Only the Spirit of God can give him true insight and awareness of spiritual matters.

     

    #826190
     GeneBalthrop 
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    NICK…. What God gives us is the spirit of truth, so we can decide properly what is truly right and what is truly wrong. Jesus called the Pharisies the childern of the d-evil and said they did his works, he did not say that demons were doing it “in” them did he?. The only thing that was in the Garden effecting what Adam and Eve were doing was what came from the tree (that which produces from self) which was in the midst of the garden, the tree of the “knowledge” of good and evil.

    Sin lies at a persons door when he or she allows it into their lives, evil is not a being, nor is good it is what actual drives the beings when allowed into . That is why if you allow evil in your life you last state is worse then your first. If’s all about spirits, and they spirits come in, Good and evil, types and kinds, sow to the good and we reap life, sow to the evil we reap death. We ourselves are the doers of good and evil, that effect our own lives. Tell me did satan or demons cause you to do the evil things you have done in your life or was it you? Was it not the lust of “your” eyes, the lust of “your” body, the pride of “your” life . James tells we are drawn by our own lusts, thats tempt us, not some demons lusts but owr own. I know there are casting out of unclean spirits but are they demonic “beings” or just evil spirits, “thoughts”, Jesus was casting out that perhaps the person himself drew into himself, knowingly or unknowingly, so the person became sickened and Jesus heald them by driving out those evil spirits that that person himself allowed in to his or her minds.

    You thinking all spirits are beings, may be a problem brother. I don’t think all spirits are beings, but all being have spirits in them, and that being will act out, what those spirits are driving him to do, Either good or evil., Thats kind of the way i see it now brother.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …….gene

    #826193
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Gene,

    The devil was not doing it.

    They were doing it.

     

    God appeals to the vessel of man to resist the influence of sin in the flesh.

    Sin in the flesh is condemned.

    Man has to choose life.

     

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