Flat Earth Debate: Mike Vs. T8

This topic contains 27 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  t8 12 hours, 15 minutes ago.

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  • #832024
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  Yes, I think the size can be determined. But I think you need to know the distance to the sun.

    And is there any possible way Eratosthenes could have known the distance to the sun?  Of course not.

    In your attempt to avoid giving the direct, honest and correct answer to such a simple question, you have accidentally given it anyway.  You have pointed out that one must first ASSUME the earth is curved, and ASSUME the distance to the sun.  Assumptions are not determinations, as the latter means “ascertain or establish exactly”.

    So the correct and honest answer is:

    NO, it is impossible to know either the shape or the size of the earth using two shadows.

    And the point of the question was to establish that the first claim almost every globe earther makes (“intelligent people have known the earth is round for over 2000 years”) is founded on a fallacy; and those people are only parroting crap they learned from other people, who were themselves parroting crap they learned from liars.  Such is the path of indoctrination… tell the lie so often and for so long that it becomes a “truth” that people are unwilling to give up – because it’s easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled.  Human pride makes a great tool for Satan to use against us.

    So, for 5500 years (out of 6000), the people of earth have known that the earth is flat and stationary, with luminaries orbiting us overhead in a domed firmament…

    Then came the “Copernican Revolution” – less than 500 years ago. My next question is:

    In the last 475 years, how has mankind been able to determine (“ascertain or establish exactly” – as opposed to “assume” or “mathematically describe”) that the earth is a spinning ball orbiting the sun and hurtling through space at millions of miles an hour?

    In other words, I just need the year and method by which we were finally able to prove – beyond any shadow of doubt – that we live on a spinning ball.  As in, when did the Copernican mathematical model become verifiable fact, and how was that accomplished?

    #832026
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  What is the single piece of evidence you can provide for the existence of the island called Madagascar?

    I can personally provide zero evidence to either confirm or deny the existence of the island called Madagascar.

    That being said, I do not have staggering amounts of Biblical and observational evidence against the existence of Madagascar – as I do against the helical model of the universe – and therefore no rational reason to deny its existence.

    #832064
     t8 
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    In your attempt to avoid giving the direct, honest and correct answer to such a simple question, you have accidentally given it anyway.

    I answered honestly, ‘I don’t know’ but went further to explain how I think it could be true, i.e., by knowing the distance to the sun.

    You then accuse me of being dishonest? Not true Mike. It seems you suffer from the same problem Trinitarian suffer from. That is, starting from the view they are right, and all else is a lie and dishonest.

    Funny seeing you suffer from the same thing you argued against for years earlier.

    #832065
     t8 
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    Can I have an honest answer to my question. I will make it easier for you though. It doesn’t have to be the best reason for believing in the existence of Madagascar, but a strong reason only. This should help speed up your response.

    #832182
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  I answered honestly, ‘I don’t know’… You then accuse me of being dishonest?

    Well let’s see…  Do you know the difference between “assume” and “determine”?  YES or NO?

    T8:  It seems you suffer from the same problem Trinitarian suffer from. That is, starting from the view they are right, and all else is a lie and dishonest.

    Funny seeing you suffer from the same thing you argued against for years earlier.

    How do Trinitarians come to be Trinitarians?

    #832183
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  Can I have an honest answer to my question. I will make it easier for you though. It doesn’t have to be the best reason for believing in the existence of Madagascar, but a strong reason only. This should help speed up your response.

    I gave you my honest answer.  I couldn’t, if my life depended on it, provide any observational evidence that the island of Madagascar actually exists.  I could appeal to photos, stories, nature films, and maps, but I couldn’t possibly verify any of them as reality.  What is your personal evidence that Madagascar exists?

    #832230
     t8 
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    Great. Thank you for answering. And now you can see that the average person also relies on the weight of evidence for the round earth. The sheer weight of evidence that is not experienced by either yourself or me is that Madagascar exists on a globe earth despite either of us ever being to Madagascar or space. If not, then we are talking about a conspiracy involving millions of people trying make us believe that Madagascar is real and even more than that making us believe wrong that the world is round.

    Na, I don’t buy it. I am not suffering from paranoia.

    Show me some pics or videos of the dome, the disc, or proof that the sailing distances in the Southern Ocean are way way bigger than currently understood and I will consider your evidence. But heat rising from the ground or a small boat disappearing when zooming out as far as your camera can, is not even close to make me reconsider.

    #832231
     t8 
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    You know Mike, I remember years ago hearing a sermon about people who fall for cults and the like. The speaker pointed out that the chances were, the person at first had a strange feeling about what they were hearing, but became convinced over time. I believe that feeling is the Spirit of Truth and over time, that spirit is being ignored or quenched.

    Yes, I came out of the Trinity, but it didn’t seem strange or weird to me that God was not a Trinity. I arrived at that conclusion from scripture and had a positive experience about it the whole time, even among huge opposition.
    It kinds works with bad things that happen to us sometimes. I remember hearing about a girl who was raped in a park and she asked ‘where was God’. But someone asked if she had a weird feeling about going into that park in the first place and the answer was she did feel weird about it but ignored that feeling.
    God often speaks the truth to us immediately when we hear truth or if we hear a lie. What did the Spirit of Truth say to you at first? And what did it take for you to change your opinion as to how you first felt? BTW, this is not a must answer question, but something to ponder.
    #832232
     t8 
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    NO, it is impossible to know either the shape or the size of the earth using two shadows.

    And the point of the question was to establish that the first claim almost every globe earther makes (“intelligent people have known the earth is round for over 2000 years”) is founded on a fallacy; and those people are only parroting crap they learned from other people, who were themselves parroting crap they learned from liars.  Such is the path of indoctrination… tell the lie so often and for so long that it becomes a “truth” that people are unwilling to give up – because it’s easier to fool people that to convince them that they have been fooled.  Human pride makes a great tool for Satan to use against us.

    Taken from Wikipedia:

    History

    Antiquity

    Though the earliest written mention of a spherical Earth comes from ancient Greek sources, there is no account of how the sphericity of the Earth was discovered.[10] A plausible explanation is that it was “the experience of travellers that suggested such an explanation for the variation in the observable altitude and the change in the area of circumpolar stars, a change that was quite drastic between Greek settlements”[attribution needed] around the eastern Mediterranean Sea, particularly those between the Nile Delta and Crimea.[11]

    In The Histories, written 431–425 BC, Herodotus cast doubt on a report of the Sun observed shining from the north. He stated that the phenomenon was observed during a circumnavigation of Africa undertaken by Phoenician explorers employed by Egyptian pharaoh Necho II c. 610–595 BC (The Histories, 4.42) who claimed to have had the Sun on their right when circumnavigating in a clockwise direction. To modern historians, these details confirm the truth of the Phoenicians’ report and even open the possibility that the Phoenicians knew about the spherical model. However, nothing certain about their knowledge of geography and navigation has survived.[12]

    The Hebrew Bible imagined a three-part world, with the heavens (shamayim) above, earth (eres) in the middle, and the underworld (sheol) below.[13] After the 4th century BCE this was gradually replaced by a Greek scientific cosmology of a spherical earth surrounded by multiple concentric heavens.[14]

    Pythagoras

    Early Greek philosophers alluded to a spherical Earth, though with some ambiguity.[15] Pythagoras (6th century BC) was among those said to have originated the idea, but this might reflect the ancient Greek practice of ascribing every discovery to one or another of their ancient wise men.[10] Some idea of the sphericity of the Earth seems to have been known to both Parmenides and Empedocles in the 5th century BC,[16] and although the idea cannot reliably be ascribed to Pythagoras,[17] it might nevertheless have been formulated in the Pythagorean school in the 5th century BC[10][16] although some disagree.[18] After the 5th century BC, no Greek writer of repute thought the world was anything but round.[15]

    Plato

    Plato (427–347 BC) travelled to southern Italy to study Pythagorean mathematics. When he returned to Athens and established his school, Plato also taught his students that Earth was a sphere, though he offered no justifications. “My conviction is that the Earth is a round body in the centre of the heavens, and therefore has no need of air or of any similar force to be a support”.[19] If man could soar high above the clouds, Earth would resemble “one of those balls which have leather coverings in twelve pieces, and is decked with various colours, of which the colours used by painters on Earth are in a manner samples.”[20] In Timaeus, his one work that was available throughout the Middle Ages in Latin, we read that the Creator “made the world in the form of a globe, round as from a lathe, having its extremes in every direction equidistant from the centre, the most perfect and the most like itself of all figures”,[21] though the word “world” here refers to the heavens.

    Aristotle

    Round Earth umbra during the August 2008 lunar eclipse
    Aristotle (384–322 BC) was Plato’s prize student and “the mind of the school”.[22] Aristotle observed “there are stars seen in Egypt and […] Cyprus which are not seen in the northerly regions.” Since this could only happen on a curved surface, he too believed Earth was a sphere “of no great size, for otherwise the effect of so slight a change of place would not be quickly apparent.” (De caelo, 298a2–10)

    Aristotle provided physical and observational arguments supporting the idea of a spherical Earth:

    Every portion of the Earth tends toward the centre until by compression and convergence they form a sphere. (De caelo, 297a9–21)
    Travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon; and
    The shadow of Earth on the Moon during a lunar eclipse is round. (De caelo, 297b31–298a10).
    The concepts of symmetry, equilibrium and cyclic repetition permeated Aristotle’s work. In his Meteorology he divided the world into five climatic zones: two temperate areas separated by a torrid zone near the equator, and two cold inhospitable regions, “one near our upper or northern pole and the other near the … southern pole,” both impenetrable and girdled with ice (Meteorologica, 362a31–35). Although no humans could survive in the frigid zones, inhabitants in the southern temperate regions could exist.

    Archimedes

    In proposition 2 of the First Book of his treatise “On floating bodies,” Archimedes demonstrates that “The surface of any fluid at rest is the surface of a sphere whose centre is the same as that of the earth,”.[23] Subsequently, in propositions 8 and 9 of the same work, he assumes the result of proposition 2 that the Earth is a sphere and that the surface of a fluid on it is a sphere centered on the center of the Earth.[24]

    Eratosthenes

    Eratosthenes, a Greek astronomer from Hellenistic Libya (276–194 BC), estimated Earth’s circumference around 240 BC. He had heard that in Syene the Sun was directly overhead at the summer solstice whereas in Alexandria it still cast a shadow. Using the differing angles the shadows made as the basis of his trigonometric calculations he estimated a circumference of around 250,000 stades. The length of a ‘stade’ is not precisely known, but Eratosthenes’s figure only has an error of around five to fifteen percent.[25][26][27] Eratosthenes used rough estimates and round numbers, but depending on the length of the stadion, his result is within a margin of between 2% and 20% of the actual meridional circumference, 40,008 kilometres (24,860 mi). Note that Eratosthenes could only measure the circumference of the Earth by assuming that the distance to the Sun is so great that the rays of sunlight are practically parallel.[28]

    Seventeen hundred years after Eratosthenes, Christopher Columbus studied Eratosthenes’s findings before sailing west for the Indies. However, ultimately he rejected Eratosthenes in favour of other maps and arguments that interpreted Earth’s circumference to be a third smaller than reality. If, instead, Columbus had accepted Eratosthenes findings, then he may have never gone west, since he didn’t have the supplies or funding needed for the much longer voyage.

    #832270
     mikeboll64 
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    T8:  Yes, I came out of the Trinity, but it didn’t seem strange or weird to me that God was not a Trinity. 

    Fantastic.  Here is the question I actually asked…

    Mike:  How do Trinitarians come to be Trinitarians?

    For example, are they led to the Trinity via scripture? Via Holy Spirit?  Via men’s traditions?  How are Trinitarians made?  Just by reading the Bible?  Or is there something else?

    I’m also waiting for the answer to this question…

    Mike:  Do you know the difference between “assume” and “determine”?  YES or NO?

    As for your lengthy Wiki cut-and-paste job, I see a lot of assuming and hypothesizing going on, but this was the question…

    Mike:  In the last 475 years, how has mankind been able to determine (“ascertain or establish exactly” – as opposed to “assume” or “mathematically describe”) that the earth is a spinning ball orbiting the sun and hurtling through space at millions of miles an hour?

    An assumption is not a determination.  A mathematical formula is not a determination.  A hypothesis is not a determination.  I’m asking when exactly we were able to PROVE that we live on a spinning ball that orbits the sun… and how that was done.

    #832533
     t8 
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    Mike:  Do you know the difference between “assume” and “determine”?  YES or NO?

    Honestly, no. I would have to google that. Off the cuff, I think ‘assume’ is a logical guess and ‘determine’ is trying to find out something.

    #832535
     t8 
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    Mike:  In the last 475 years, how has mankind been able to determine (“ascertain or establish exactly” – as opposed to “assume” or “mathematically describe”) that the earth is a spinning ball orbiting the sun and hurtling through space at millions of miles an hour?

    Okay, I’m just going to rattle off what I know, so my explanation might be a little rusty.

    For the Earth being a globe, a number of observations and calculations early on, followed by actual navigation and expeditions that circumnavigated the globe and visited the southern continent, then followed by actual footage once we had the technology. The latter being the nail in the coffin for the Flat Earth.

    As for moving in space, well it is a no-brainer that everything is moving from our perspective except yes, we experience being still. This is also true when we take an aircraft and say throw a tennis ball up and down. We are still and everything else is moving. Same when travelling inside a car. You only notice you are moving when you change speed, open the window, or hear the engines, (which the Earth doesn’t experience). Thus, it is at least possible given these simple observations that the Earth could be moving too along with its atmosphere like everything else is.

    Then we have the Doppler Effect in the visible spectrum that shows all heavenly bodies are moving away from us leading to the idea that if you rewind the clock, there was a moment of creation at a single point rather than the Universe always existing in a steady state which is what Einstein subscribed to, but had to change his view once multiple pieces of evidence started to stream in. The moment of creation of course pointed to God, but it was science and Atheists towed the line. Discovery of the background radiation I think was predicted was then discovered leading to a Nobel Prize. This is microwave radiation which was a product of the what became known as the Big Bang. Another word for the moment of creation.

    Earlier observations with the naked eye and with telescopes showed us that all the stars bar one that we see are actually in a galaxy called the Milky Way and the one star that is not, turned out to be another whole galaxy which was named ‘Andromeda’. As telescopes became more powerful such as Hubble , images of tens of thousands of galaxies were captured even in one small point of darkness proving that there are billions of suns in each galaxy and there are billions of galaxies. (The heavens declaring the glory of God.)

    It seems the more we learn, the more even Atheists are totally blown away by the creation we exist in. While the universe we understand today begs that there is a God all the more, men’s hearts are hard. On the other-hand, in Quantum Physics, many physicists are starting to believe in God when they see how finely tuned the universe is. This is why the Multiverse Theory is rising. It is the only contender to explain a universe without God. Before this, that theory was not taken seriously in the scientific community.  So the option today is the universe was either created by an almighty God or our universe happened to be the lucky one in an almost eternal multiverse where each universe has a different series of rules. This is just an outline Mike. Obviously there is a lot of science behind all this.

    Indeed, the Bible predicts this increase in science. Science means Knowledge and the scriptures say that knowledge shall increase. 

    #832539
     t8 
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    Yes or no.

    This is not a rocky sphere with crater formed by smaller rocks flying through space. Instead, it is an actual light like a star or like our sun?

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