Firstborn of/over all creation

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  • #265276
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 29 2010,00:29)
    t8,
    Your post was spot on.

    Terra,
    WJ does see the truth but is afraid to accept it because it would mean alienation from his peers. Simple as!

    LU,
    As can be seen from the numerous quotes: Many people had many ideas about 'Jesus' but yet there is only one answer, one true answer.

    Start by asking, 'What is [a] God?'

    Then ask, 'Is it possible for there to be more than one God?'

    Also ask, 'Can [a] God become 'not' [a] God?'

    Try, 'What is the name of God?'

    More, 'What is the name of the Father?',
    And, What is the name of the Son?,
    And, What is the name of the Holy Spirit?'

    And also ask, 'Why is the Son called 'the word' of God if he IS God?'

    And finally, but not final, 'How, can God [as the Son]  die, and be raised up again to a MORE glorious position, IF he were already God before he emptied himself and became flesh. To what 'more glorious' position could he have been raised to….and yet….still be subordinate to the Father, as God…and in what relation to the Holy Spirit?'


    Hi JA,
    I really like your tone on this post, it does not appear arrogant, or condescending…just honest. Thank you!

    You ask:

    Quote
    Start by asking, 'What is [a] God?'

    Answer: a being with divine nature.

    Quote

    Then ask, 'Is it possible for there to be more than one God?'

    Yes, it is possible for there to be more than one God (divine being), but it is not possible for there to be more than one unbegotten God (divine being).

    Quote
    Also ask, 'Can [a] God become 'not' [a] God?'

    You are asking if a divine being can become not a divine being. I would say no. A divine being can however limit Himself by choice.

    Quote
    Try, 'What is the name of God?'

    The name of the UNbegotten God (divine being) is 'Father' if you are His child. His proper name is YHVH. He can be called 'Lord', 'God' as well as 'my provider' etc.

    The name of the begotten God (divine being) is Yeshua (Jesus) after He became flesh. Beforehand He was not yet revealed but still existed. He was manifesting YHVH and went by YHVH also, before He was revealed as Yeshua (Jesus). His relationship to the Father is one of being His only begotten Son.

    Quote
    And, What is the name of the Holy Spirit?

    Holy Spirit, or Comforter.

    Quote
    And also ask, 'Why is the Son called 'the word' of God if he IS God?'

    We are known by our words. The Father is known by His Son. Maybe there is a simile in this. The Son is not the Most High God, He is the God (divine being) OF/FROM the Most High God (divine being).

    Quote
    And finally, but not final, 'How, can God [as the Son] die, and be raised up again to a MORE glorious position, IF he were already God before he emptied himself and became flesh. To what 'more glorious' position could he have been raised to….and yet….still be subordinate to the Father, as God…and in what relation to the Holy Spirit?'

    Before the begotten God came in the flesh, He was the only begotten God with a covenant to fulfill. Part of the covenant was to limit Himself of whatever, come in flesh as a man, and follow His Father's will completely even unto death. After He died, He was the begotten God with the covenant fulfilled. That fulfilling of the covenant came with the rewards of worship and glory as seated at the right hand of His Father and all things restored to Him that He limited Himself of when coming in the flesh among other things.

    This is my understand, JA.
    Thanks for just asking.

    #265277
     Lightenup 
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    Here is a quote from Cyril on God, the Word begotten before all ages and implies that as His beginning:

    Quote
    6. How Christ is One.

    The Divine Paul writes, Though there be gods many and lords many in heaven and in earth, yet to us One God the Father of Whom all things and we of Him, and One Lord Jesus Christ through Whom all things and we through Him. Yea and the very wise John said of God the Word, that All things were made through Him, and without Him was nothing made, and the blessed Gabriel declared the Gospel to the Holy Virgin saying, Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb and, bear a Son, and shalt call His Name Jesus. Since then the Divine Paul declares that all things were made through Jesus Christ, and the Divine Evangelist confirms the force of the sentence and preaches that He |191 was God the Maker of all things, speaking truly, and the Angel's voice too points out that Jesus Christ was truly born of the Holy Virgin: yet we do not say that Jesus Christ was mere man 8, nor do we conceive of God the Word apart from His human nature but, we say that He was made One out of both, as God made Man, the Same begotten Divinely out of the Father as Word, and humanly out of woman as Man: not as though called to a second beginning of being then when He is said to have been born after the flesh: but begotten indeed before all ages, yet when the time came wherein He must fulfil the economy, born also of a woman after the flesh. Therefore, albeit others are called by like name christs, yet is there One Jesus Christ through Whom are all things, not that a man was made Maker of all things, but that God the Word, through Whom all things were made, like as we took part of flesh and blood, and was called Man, yet lost not what He was; for so, so made in flesh is He rightly understood to be Maker of all.


    from: http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1

    Interesting how many early church fathers place the begetting before all the ages.

    #265278
     Lightenup 
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    More from Cyril regarding the Word of God being very God out of very God and begotten BEFORE the incarnation:

    Quote
    Desiring to investigate the Mystery of the economy with flesh of the Only Begotten, we say this, holding true doctrine and right faith, that the Word Himself out of God the Father, Very God out of Very God, the Light That is out of Light, was Incarnate and made Man, descended suffered rose from the dead: for thus defined the holy and great Synod the Symbol of the Faith;

    But investigating and desiring to learn what is the true meaning of the Word being Incarnate and made Man; we see that it is not to take man in connection in regard of equality of dignity or authority or of mere community of name of sonship; but rather to be made man as we, together with His preserving to His own Nature Its being unchanged and without turn, Who economically became in assumption of flesh and blood.

    One therefore is He Who before the Incarnation is called by the God-inspired Scripture, Only-Begotten, Word, God, Image, Brightness, Impress of the Person of the Father, Life, Glory, Light, Wisdom, Power, Arm, Right Hand, Most Highest, Magnificence, Lord of Sabaoth, and other like names, truly most God-befitting; and after the Incarnation, Man, Christ Jesus, Propitiation, Mediator, Firstfruits of them that slept, First-begotten of the dead, Second Adam, Head of the Body the Church; the first |201 names also following Him: for all are His, both the first and those in the last times of the world.

    One therefore is He Who both before the Incarnation was Very God and in the human nature hath remained That He was and is and shall be. We must not then sever the One Lord Jesus Christ into Man separately and into God separately, but we say that Jesus Christ is One and the Same, yet knowing the distinction of the Natures and keeping them unconfused with one another.

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel…..htm#C1

    #265279
     Baker 
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    Hello! This is going to be a very short post. If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer. Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene

    #265280
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47)
    Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene


    Irene

    I have answered you many times.

    So let me take another approach.

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ

    #265281
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2010,08:08)

    Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47)
    Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene


    Irene

    I have answered you many times.

    So let me take another approach.

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ


    I hope you two don't mind if I butt in.

    If the holy spirit is a person, then that person, NOT THE FATHER, is the father of Jesus Christ, right?

    I think that is what Irene is asking Keith.

    mike

    #265282
     JustAskin 
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    LU,
    There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God'.

    There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God' in Scriptures…and Scriptures cannot be broken.

    Please note the use of the 'indefinite article, 'a''. This is very important to as it distinquishes 'the many' from the 'One' ('The Theos', definite article)

    All the quotes pertaining to Jesus being 'a God' are simply Trinitarian deliberate mistranslation of 'Theos'.

    Theos is not exclusively meant to say 'God' but can also mean, 'a Mighty One', 'a Supreme being', 'a Hero', 'The best of the best', 'a powerful one', etc.

    YHVH is the 'Most High Theos', 'the greatest of all Mighty Ones'.

    Jesus is indeed, 'a mighty one'. All angels are 'Mighty Beings', Sons of YHVH, 'The Theos'.

    Jesus is 'The Mightiest' of the Sons of 'The Theos'.

    Trinitarians, note caeefully, do not call the Holy Spirit, Theos, except by the creed. They do not use Theos in everday discussion, only as backing from the creed. They do not 'Worship' the Holy Spirit, indeed, they do not Worship Jesus Christ, but merely state in in the creed.

    In fact, no where in Scriptures does it state that Jesus is to be Worshipped by Mankind, the angels, yes, but not Mankind.

    In fact, Scriptures says, 'Honor the Son [Jesus Christ], Worship the Father'

    In Revelation, only the One seated on the Throne is Worshipped. All other times only 'Praise, Honor and Glory' are given…to both.
    In addition, 'Jesus' is also given 'Power and Riches'. Who from? If Jesus is God, then he already has 'Power and Riches'!

    #265283
     Ed J 
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    Quote (Baker @ Sep. 03 2010,07:47)
    Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene


    Hi Irene,

    Why yes of course! (Click Here)

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
    יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

    #265284
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 03 2010,01:57)
    LU,
    There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God'.

    There is no such thing as a 'Begotten God' in Scriptures…and Scriptures cannot be broken.

    Please note the use of the 'indefinite article, 'a''. This is very important to as it distinquishes 'the many' from the 'One' ('The Theos', definite article)

    All the quotes pertaining to Jesus being 'a God' are simply Trinitarian deliberate mistranslation of 'Theos'.

    Theos is not exclusively meant to say 'God' but can also mean, 'a Mighty One', 'a Supreme being', 'a Hero', 'The best of the best', 'a powerful one', etc.

    YHVH is the 'Most High Theos', 'the greatest of all Mighty Ones'.

    Jesus is indeed, 'a mighty one'. All angels are 'Mighty Beings', Sons of YHVH, 'The Theos'.

    Jesus is 'The Mightiest' of the Sons of 'The Theos'.

    Trinitarians, note caeefully, do not call the Holy Spirit, Theos, except by the creed. They do not use Theos in everday discussion, only as backing from the creed. They do not 'Worship' the Holy Spirit, indeed, they do not Worship Jesus Christ, but merely state in in the creed.

    In fact, no where in Scriptures does it state that Jesus is to be Worshipped by Mankind, the angels, yes, but not Mankind.

    In fact, Scriptures says, 'Honor the Son [Jesus Christ], Worship the Father'

    In Revelation, only the One seated on the Throne is Worshipped. All other times only 'Praise, Honor and Glory' are given…to both.
    In addition, 'Jesus' is also given 'Power and Riches'. Who from? If Jesus is God, then he already has 'Power and Riches'!


    JA,
    Thanks for your effort to 'straighten' me out. John 1:18…the only begotten God…o monogenes theos…check it out:

    NASB © Joh 1:18
    No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

    We don't want to take away from scripture. Theos can't mean mighty one here because the angels are mighty ones and they are many. Monogenes has the sense of being the only begotten theos.

    Could the reason that Jesus is given riches and power be because the Son of God EMPTIED Himself to become flesh and thus was given back?

    #265285
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 02 2010,20:32)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2010,08:08)

    Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47)
    Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene


    Irene

    I have answered you many times.

    So let me take another approach.

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ


    I hope you two don't mind if I butt in.

    If the holy spirit is a person, then that person, NOT THE FATHER, is the father of Jesus Christ, right?

    I think that is what Irene is asking Keith.

    mike


    Mike

    The scriptures says Jesus is the “Son of God”.

    Since God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit then Jesus incarnation involved the three. Luke 1:35, Job 33:4, Heb 10:5, Phil 2:6-8

    The Holy Spirit came upon Mary and caused her to concieve his body, (Job 33:4, Heb 10:5) in that moment the power of the Highest overshadowed her and Jesus took on the likeness of sinful flesh (John 1:1, 14, Phil 2:6-8)

    And the Angel anounced that he Jesus would be called the Son of God”.

    Now the question is right back to you…

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ

    #265287
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 03 2010,01:57)
    Trinitarians, note caeefully, do not call the Holy Spirit, Theos, except by the creed. They do not use Theos in everday discussion, only as backing from the creed. They do not 'Worship' the Holy Spirit, indeed, they do not Worship Jesus Christ, but merely state in in the creed.


    Hi all.

    This is a lie and spoken by someone who has no clue what a Trinitarian does and who he worships. I have already proven to him I worship the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit as one God.

    I worship you and praise you God my Father for your Love and your goodness towards me for you are worthy to be praised and worshipped.

    I worship you Jesus my Great God and Savour for you are worthy of all praise and honour and Glory.

    I praise and worship you sweet Holy Spirit for all the things you have done in my life and for what you are doing in me everyday for you truly are God one with the Father and Jesus.

    WJ

    #265288
     JustAskin 
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    LU,
    There is no such thing as a 'Beggoten God'.

    There is no such thing as a created God.

    There is no such thing as any other 'God' than YHVH.

    If you refer the TITLE: 'God' to YHVH, then there is no other 'God'.

    YHVH himself stresses this over and over in the OT.

    Jesus is not 'a God' in this respect. In this respect, there is no other God.

    God, in this respect refers to the…the…the Supreme Mighty One, YHVH.

    A God, in this respect, cannot be created. One cannot create the Supreme Being, nor become the Supreme Being.

    Only when 'God' is being refered to as 'a mighty one', 'a supreme being', 'a hero', 'a best of the best', 'a …' can, then, one be created, become, attain to, raise up to be, 'a God'.

    The problem, LU, is that 'everyone' does not understand that 'God' is ONLY a TITLE….it is not a person…only the association OF a person to the Title gives 'God' it's meaning: 'The God', or 'a God'.

    Everyone is so hung up using 'God' as the NAME of the Father that they forget (did they even know in the first place) that it is ONLY a TITLE.

    Check this: Keep calling Elvis Presley 'The King'…'the King'…'the King'…so much that everywhere everyone goes you merely say, 'the King' and everyone understands that it means 'Elvis Presley'.

    What has happened is the the title of 'King' has become a byName for E.P.

    Now, E.P. has a son. Immediately, the son is called son of the King…snd is therefore a 'Prince'. Is this true? Is the Son a Prince?

    #265289
     Lightenup 
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    That right JA,
    There is no such thing as a created God. A begotten God, yes, a created God no.

    Again, John 1:18 o monogenes theos…only begotten God.

    #265290
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 03 2010,01:57)
    In addition, 'Jesus' is also given 'Power and Riches'. Who from? If Jesus is God, then he already has 'Power and Riches'!


    Hi all

    Again he is not speaking the whole truth.

    And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, “BLESSING, AND HONOUR, AND GLORY, AND POWER, BE UNTO HIM THAT SITTETH UPON THE THRONE“, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. Rev 5:13

    And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and “fell before the throne on their faces, and WORSHIPPED GOD”, Saying, Amen: “BLESSING, and GLORY, and WISDOM, and thanksgiving, and honour, and POWER, and MIGHT, be **UNTO OUR GOD**” for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 7:11, 12

    Either the Father and Jesus is also recieving those things or this is unambiguous proof that Jesus is God. Of course if Jesus gets the same Glory and honour as the Father then he is God. :D

    BTW JA, thanks for pointing that out, for could it be that Rev 7:11, 12 is speaking of Jesus?

    WJ

    #265291
     Baker 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 03 2010,08:08)

    Quote (Baker @ Sep. 02 2010,15:47)
    Hello!  This is going to be a very short post.  If the Holy Spirit is a person, would He then not be His Father???? I have asked this before and got no answer.  Hope you WJ answer me this time….
    Peace Irene


    Irene

    I have answered you many times.

    So let me take another approach.

    If the Holy Spirit is not a person as you say but an “it”,  and Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit in Mary, then according to you an “it” is the Father of Jesus, is that right?

    WJ


    WJ Mike is right, I asked IF THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A PERSON, WOULD HE THEN NOT BE THE FATHER OF JESUS? That you did not address….What you are saying is not what I asked you. Why is that so confusion to you? I asked a plain Question and you try to make something else out of it. What you are saying is not what I asked you. Read it again….As far as the Holy Spirit being an it, it is the Spirit of our Heavenly Father Jehovah….got it…..Just like we have the Holy Spirit in us, Maria was conceived by His Holy Spirit and that makes Jehovah God His Father.
    Peace Irene

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