Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,653 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  Jodi 1 hour, 46 minutes ago.

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  • #834459
     Ed J 
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    Edj….Show scripture, to support your conclusions, islam did not even exist when those scriptures speaking of mystery bablyon were written

    Hi Gene,

    “And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains,
    on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen,
    and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh,
    he must continue a short space. 11 And the beast that was,
    and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven,
    and goeth into perdition.” (Rev 17:9-11)

    #834470
     Anthony 
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    Hi Gene

    You answers to to your comments on  my post. For one Jesus Christ pre-existed before anything was created.

    John 1:1
    In the beginning was the Word(God the Son), and the Word was with God (God the Father)and the Word was God (God the Son).

    This scripture is greatly misinterpreted to support the false doctrine of the Trinity, but the fact is that it actually disproves the Trinity. When correctly understood John 1:1 supports the truth that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God and the only begotten God.

    In the beginning was the Word; please understand that the Bible would never ever say that in the beginning was Father God. Why not? Because Father God has no beginning. However, God the Son Jesus had a beginning, therefore, John 1:1 above says, “In the beginning was the Word.” This confirms the truth of the Bible that the Son had a beginning when Father God begot (birthed) Him in the beginning. The birth of the Son of God was the beginning of all beginnings, the most magnificent birth, which was the very first glorious event that happened before anything was created.

    and the Word was with God; the Word, referring to God the Son Jesus Christ, was with His Father God from the beginning when He was begotten by His Father God. This beginning was beforethe beginning of the creation of the heavens and the earth, as mentioned in Genesis 1:1.

    and the Word was God; of course, Jesus is God because He is God the Son, and He belongs to the one Holy God Elohim Family of Father and Son. However, God the Son Jesus (Yeshua) is not a co-equal God to His Father (Yahweh). They are two separate Persons of Father and Son, and the Father is always greater than the Son, as clearly stated many times in Scripture. Jesus Christ is similar to His Father God in several respects. Just like His Father, Jesus Christ is Spirit, uncreated, immortal, holy and righteous, yet He is a separate God, God the Son, who is always subordinate to His Father God and a willing Servant to Him (Mark 16:19, Colossians 1:16, 1 Corinthians 11:3, John 14:28).

    The truth of the Bible that Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, was born of His Father before the world existed is also clearly stated in the book of Proverbs.

    Proverbs 8:24-30 (NIV)
    24 When there were no oceans,I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth. 26 before he made the world or its fields or any of the dust of the earth. 27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep, 28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep, 29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. 30 Then I was constantly at his (Father’s)side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence.

    Although these verses speak about ‘the Wisdom of God’, they are actually referring to Jesus Christ. Apostle Paul says that Christ is the wisdom of God in 1 Corinthians 1:24. Proverbs 8:24-30 above is a clear scripture proving the truth of the Bible that Jesus Christ was birthed by His Father God before the world existed, before Father God created all things through His Son Jesus.

    1 John 5:1
    Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God(Father God), and everyone who loves Him (Father God)who begot also loves him(Jesus Christ) who is begottenof Him (Father God).

    Once again, the Bible emphasises the same truth that Father God begot His Son and the Son was begotten of His Father .                  now to your comments and teaching on the man of perdition (sin) you said that, basically that man is claiming that the only begotten Son is God, also saying that was what the gnostic we’re saying the Jesus Christ was God. There’s alot of different groups for what they consider gnostic. I’ll show you that some was saying that Jesus Christ is just a man, Just like your saying.you Just don’t say that Jesus Christ “as just man”was adopted at His Baptismal.I take it you don’t know and realize that oughta for a man to be the only Son of God would have to be adopted by the Father (God), as Jesus Christ was adopted by Joseph. To be from the line of David.(adopted) God bless.

     

    #834513
     Ed J 
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    Gene?

    #834593
     Ed J 
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    Gene?

    #834912
     t8 
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    Are some here preaching an earthly body gospel?

    #834913
     t8 
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    To all… nothing has changed with JESUS’ APERANCE, HE IS THE EXACT SAME PERSON HE WAS, ONLY HIS BODY CAN NOT ANY LONGER DIE, AND HE HAS NOW RECIEVED A CROWN OF GLORY, AS ALL WHO ARE TRUE BELIEVERS WILL.

    Come back to your senses as you ought, and stop sinning; for there are some who are ignorant of God—I say this to your shame.

    But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

    It seems that this clay body could be a seed for the heavenly body rather than wearing the same exact clay body as the spiritual body. John admitted that he was somewhat in the dark about the kind of body we will receive.

    Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.
    But Paul had this to say regarding what we know about heavenly things.

    “For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known”

    Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

    What we do know from reading scripture is Jesus was raised in his body and in glory has different colour hair, but that has probably more to do with the glory he is shining. We also read about angels who are spirits but come to this realm as men and can even eat. Surely we are somewhat in the dark about the body we inherit, it seems that it can adapt to the realm it is in though.

    The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire. His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.…

    But we know our body will be TRANSFORMED. Notice that word has the word FORMED in it.

    But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body.

    So we will be transformed from earthly to heavenly. And surely we need to be careful about peddling a gospel where we will have an  earthly body after the resurrection.

    And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

    #834944
     Jodi 
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    Good Morning T8 and All,

    There are a few key things I see that people are misunderstanding and therefore they cannot see the truth as it is shown quite clearly in many places.

    Earthly man verses heavenly man,

    What is the difference? 

    First let’s recognize that the word man here is the Greek word for a human being.

    So what we have is the Earthly human being verses the heavenly human being.

    Earthly human beings,

    We know quite clearly from multitudes of scripture throughout the bible that the earthly human being represents the human being who is ignorant of God and through following his own imagination he is able to invent lies and deceit.  We are also given a comparison in the bible where when human beings sin they are acting like natural brute beasts. Natural– meaning inborn- governed by instincts, Brutecontrary/destitute of reason, Beast – a living being, animal.  We are told that the earthly human being is in bondage to the fear of death, like animals we are governed by instincts, when there is a perceivable threat we are subjected to an instinctual response that comes from our brains, fight, flight, or freeze. Many animals have this same inborn response in their brains. Other instincts include procreation, to be territorial and dominant. We also must eat in order to stay alive, we must serve our bodies in order to live. Our mind devices ways in which to serve our weak mortal bodies that hunger, that get tired, that feel pain, that instinctively fear death and subsequently instinctively have a desire to live.

    YHWH is the source of truth, human beings do not discover truth on their own. Without God human beings are governed by instincts and emotions, they are ignorant and destitute from any reasonable thing, like a dog that returns to his own vomit. YHWH is the source of all that is good, as Jesus said not one is good, God alone is good. As told in Galatians 5 those who are ignorant of God when they set out to serve their flesh apart from God’s truth and God’s goodness you find envy, strife, murder, sexual immorality, lies, deceit, idolatry, hatred, etc. The fruits of God’s Spirit bring love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. The power of God’s Spirit over the living being, the human being causes him to overcome his carnal mind. A human being transforms from a living creature, a living beast into an image of God. We are the only living creature on earth that God gave this capability to, as he designed our brains/our minds capable of taking on the knowledge of God. When we do not have God’s mercy, God’s Spirit working in us we are no different than a snake, or a dog, or a lion, or a vulture.

    The heavenly human being,

    First point that I have is that we recognize what the word “heavenly” represents. Not the sky, not like that of some other creature that may dwell in the sky, but godly of God. The heavenly human being is a human being that is godly, righteous, of God, an image of Him. 

    When Jesus was a mortal he was led by the Spirit without measure, he was able to overcome the carnal mind. He was tempted but being full of God’s Spirit in his mind full of wisdom, understanding, knowledge and power, he was able to overcome his carnal mind and live without sin, he lived as a heavenly human being. Without sin found in him he dwelt in the image of God, he was of God, he was godly, he was righteous. He however was not yet a perfect human being, not until he showed the ultimate act of faith, not until he went up to the cross. He also was not the perfect image of God yet, as God is eternal life and he was mortal. His mind was perfected, he had overcome the will of man and perfectly followed the will of God going to the cross, his mind was the perfect image of God, but his body however wasn’t as it could die and did die. Jesus was the holy one of God, where his flesh was spotless and without blemish, even though it could be tempted. For this reason God raised it from the dead without allowing it to decay, he was not deserving of death, nor decay. He had to die, but God would not have this body without spot or blemish decay. What God did with this body was complete it in His image, which was to give it eternal life. God quickened his spirit, brought it back to life in a body that had not decayed but had received eternal life. This is why we see in 1 Corinthians 15 that Jesus was RAISED in power, RAISED in glory. The question was in this chapter but how are the DEAD RASIED UP, with what BODY do they COME with. What body did Jesus come with when he ROSE UP from the DEAD?  He was raised up with the body that didn’t decay, but it was a body of flesh and bones, not with blood, but having received the water of the fountain of life.
    God fulfilled his promise that He had made before he created heaven and earth, eternal life for HUMAN BEINGS.
    Key misunderstanding here are the words spiritual and heavenly.
    Those who mind the weak flesh and their ignorance and their imagination are earthly.
    Those that have God’s mercy and His Spirit working in them, mind the will of God and are spiritual. Heavenly is to be of God, it is to be righteous minded as He is,  and it is to have an eternal body like He does.
    What is entirely overlooked is that the word man means human being, and human being represents one specific “kind” of creature that God created. His whole purpose was to bring this “kind” into eternal life, that is why it is said that God made human beings in His image. Paul tells us that “kinds” do not change into another “kind”, each seed bears it’s own fruit after it’s own kind.
    Jesus was raised and exists still as this same “kind” of creature that God had made. We are told repeatedly that Jesus the Christ who sits at God’s right hand and is returning to earth is STILL that SAME “kind”, he is emphatically called such multiple times after he was raised from the dead. He is a HUMAN BEING, a Son of a HUMAN BEING of the lineage of David and of Abraham. 
    Jesus is no longer of blood, blood is what carries oxygen that we breath and nutrients that we eat to our cells in order to keep us mortals alive. Jesus is still flesh and bones, what he has now instead of blood is the water of the fountain of life flowing through him!!!

     

    #834945
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Jodi……very good post, sis.

    Peace and love to you and yours ………gene

    #834946
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    God has an ETERNAL BODY?

    Show us from scripture.

    You ascribe great abilities to weak man. Nonsense.

    Satan is the one who manifests his nature through his puppets.

    The whole world is under the power of the evil one.

    #834947
     Jodi 
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    Nick,

    Show me where I said that God has an eternal body?

    I said God is ETERNAL, not that He has an eternal body!!

    Jesus has been given an eternal body by His Eternal Almighty Creator. They are both eternal, not they both have an eternal body, and they certainly do not have the same body.

    Nick there are no puppets, we are not God’s puppets nor are we some other created being’s puppets. If evil men were puppets, they would not be at fault for sin. A puppet does not speak from it’s own imagination, it does not create actions through itself. Why you deny hundreds of scripture is beyond me.

    Lions are not puppets either, they are living beings that God designed how it is that they will function. Lions currently hunt and eat other creatures. He gave them instincts which we also have such as fight, flight, or freeze. In His kingdom He will change the lion to eat grass instead of flesh, the lion will no longer be wild, he will no longer experience fight, flight, or freeze. The lion will still be a lion, but how he has been made to function will be changed.

    In the resurrection of those who are Christ’s human beings rise from the dead with a body that functions differently then it did when it was mortal. It has a body that can no longer be tempted and can no longer die, such a change would cause a human being to function differently now wouldn’t it?

    This particular living creature that God made, the human being, will function under the will of God alone, he will function according to God’s truth and God’s wisdom, no longer left to an imagination that is filled with ignorance. The entire earth will be filled with the knowledge of our Creator and His intended design, with each kind of living creature functioning according to what is pleasing to Him. The whole earth will dwell in peace and harmony because of it. 

     

    #834948
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    Certainly in the 1000 year rest after the resurrection of the sons of God there will be no temptation because the accuser of the brethren will be in prison. But after his release we will see man return to his previous rebellious ways.

    #834949
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Nick….So I God can change the nature of animals, he can also change the nature od his human creation. The body God dwells in is his creation. Our bodies are his temple he can dwell in as well as “ALL” his creation,”that God maybe “ALL” IN “ALL.  IF God was “in” Jesus reconciling the world unto himself,  he can also be “in” us doing the same.

    Jodi is right in what she is saying Nick.

     

    Peace and love to you and yours. ………gene

    #834951
     Jodi 
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    Nick,

    You said, “Certainly in the 1000 year rest after the resurrection of the sons of God there will be no temptation because the accuser of the brethren will be in prison. But after his release we will see man return to his previous rebellious ways.”

    Are you really saying that those whom God perfected and were made Sons of God can fall, returning to a rebellious state?

    If so you have just destroyed the Gospel itself!

    The accuser here are kings who persecute Christ’s followers because they have not the knowledge of God, the carnal mind on it’s own is incapable of truth, this is why these kings are referred to as a great beast, as other living creatures are also blind and deaf to God also.

    The ones that are rebellious after the 1,000 years are not the Sons of God but are the unjust of the second resurrection. Surely that is what you meant?

    NICK, the one who likes to refuse answering direct questions, and not addressing certain scriptures, who instead makes personal attacks, and tries switch and bate tactics to draw one away from what you cannot answer, maybe you might answer these,

    Why are men referred to as being blind?

    Why is man said to sin out of his own ignorance?

    Why is man called a serpent, viper, or a dog?

    Why does Paul say that the carnal/instinctual mind is at enmity to God?

     

    #834954
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    No it is not the children of God but those others who are yet children of disobedience.

    Satan does his work in his helpless servants.

    #834955
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Jodi,

    You would use all your tricks to try to show that Satan is not real and man is the enemy of God.

    Not true though.

     

    Since Adam rebelled and obeyed the serpent of old Satan has ruled natural man.

    The whole earth is under the power of the evil one.

    Repentance from his idolatry is the doorway that can lead to salvation of the soul.

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