Firstborn of/over all creation

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  • #826232
     Jodi 
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    Lightenup,

    Things we have to look at

    firstborn, begotten, sent, Son of God, Christ, One God, Jehovah, the two covenants, Melchizedek, the purpose/the promise…there is probably more.

    I believe you are in error of understanding many key scriptures that discuss the above. I will not be able to hit on all of these in one post, but a few.

    ACCORDING to DIRECT scripture, Jesus the MAN born of the seed of David came in the name of the Father.

    John 5:43 `I have come in the name of my Father, and ye do not receive me; if another may come in his own name, him ye will receive; 44 how are ye able — ye — to believe, glory from one another receiving, and the glory that [is] from God alone ye seek not?

    Matthew 6: 9 thus therefore pray ye: `Our Father who [art] in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name.

    Jesus came in the name of his Father, the scriptures don’t attest to Jesus being the person of the name, otherwise he would be his own father. Jesus says his Father’s name is hallowed, it is sacred.

    You gave the below translation that comes from Dr Rocco Errico. With all do respect Lighten up there exists no manuscript of the NT that contains the word Jehovah. Dr. Rocco has ADDED it according to his theology. 

    Dr Rocco’s translation  1 Cor 8:6 To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand. Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    All other translations  1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us [is] one God (theos) the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord (kurios), Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him;

    We have ONE God, that is what we are told and that ONE God we are told is the Father, and Jesus came in the name of the Father. The holy name of the Father is Jehovah.

    I Timothy 2: 5 for one is God, one also is mediator OF God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,

    God is ONE and the CHRIST Jesus is a MAN.

    There is but ONE God and Father of ALL.

    Ephesians 4: 4 one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all, 7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ, 8 wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,’ — 9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? 10 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things — 11 and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers, 12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, 13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,

    The FULNESS of Christ is the PERFECT MAN. Christ being the seed of David, born of the flesh. 

    Acts 17: 24 <strong>God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell, </strong>25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything<strong>, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 He made also of one blood every nation of men, to dwell upon all the face of the earth -- having ordained times before appointed, and the bounds of their dwellings</strong> -- 27 to seek the Lord, if perhaps they did feel after Him and find, -- though, indeed, He is not far from each one of us, <strong>28 for in Him we live, and move</strong>, and are; as also certain of your poets have said: For of Him also we are offspring. 29Being, therefore, offspring of God, we ought not to think the Godhead to be like to gold, or silver, or stone, graving of art and device of man; 30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, 31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.’

    We ARE OFFSPRING of GOD!!

    1Corinthians 11: 7 for a man, indeed, ought not to cover the head, being the image and glory of God, and a woman is the glory of a man,

    2 Corinthians 4: 4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;… 14 knowing that He who did raise up the Lord Jesus, us also through Jesus shall raise up, and shall present with you, 15 for the all things [are] because of you, that the grace having been multiplied, because of the thanksgiving of the more, may abound to the glory of God;

    THE GLORY of the CHRIST is an IMMORTAL MAN, who was given eternal life because he had been anointed with the Spirit, and through that anointing he lived without spot or blemish, and could not be held to the punishment of sin, which is death. This makes him the LAMB of God.

    The perfected MAN is the image and the glory of the ONE TRUE GOD the Father, whose name is Jehovah. He created the world and all things in it.

    Jesus is identified as THE CHRIST which also means the Messiah,

    Mashiyach-

    anointed, anointed one

    of the Messiah, Messianic prince

    of the king of Israel

    of the high priest of Israel

    anointed 37, Messiah 2ds

    Christos

    Christ = “anointed”

    Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God

    anointed

    Christ 516, Christ’s 11, Messiah 4

    The scriptures tell us that Messiah/Christ is to come, raised up of the seed of David, he is begotten on a specific day in time which OCCURRED LONG after King David, he is a CHOSEN one OUT OF the PEOPLE to be a king for eternity, this seed of David is a MAN APPOINTED firstborn, his SOUL is delivered from the grave, in Jehovah’s NAME Jesus shall be exalted.

    Psalms 2: 1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity? 2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: 3 Let us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' 4 He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. 5 Then doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble them: 6And I — I have anointed My King, Upon Zion — My holy hill.’ 7 I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, `My Son Thou [art], I to-day have brought thee forth. 8 Ask of Me and I give nations — thy inheritance, And thy possession — the ends of earth. 9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.’ 10 And now, O kings, act wisely, Be instructed, O judges of earth, 11 Serve ye Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!

    Psalms 89:2 For I said, To the age is kindness built, The heavens! Thou dost establish Thy faithfulness in them.' 3 <strong>I have made a covenant for My chosen, I have sworn to David My servant</strong>: 4Even to the age do I establish thy seed, And have built to generation and generation thy throne. Selah. 5 and the heavens confess Thy wonders, O Jehovah, Thy faithfulness also [is] in an assembly of holy ones. 6 For who in the sky, Compareth himself to Jehovah? Is like to Jehovah among sons of the mighty? 7 God is very terrible, In the secret counsel of His holy ones, And fearful over all surrounding Him. 8 O Jehovah, God of Hosts, Who [is] like Thee — a strong Jah? And Thy faithfulness [is] round about Thee. 9 Thou [art] ruler over the pride of the sea, In the lifting up of its billows Thou dost restrain them. …17 For the beauty of their strength [art] Thou, And in Thy good will is our horn exalted,

    18 For of Jehovah [is] our shield, And of the Holy One of Israel our king. 19 Then Thou hast spoken in vision, To Thy saint, yea, Thou sayest, I have placed help upon a mighty one, Exalted a chosen one out of the people,

    20 I have found David My servant, With My holy oil I have anointed him. 21 With whom My hand is established, My arm also doth strengthen him. 22 An enemy exacteth not upon him, And a son of perverseness afflicteth him not. 23 And I have beaten down before him his adversaries, And those hating him I plague, 24 And My faithfulness and kindness [are] with him, And in My name is his horn exalted. 25 And I have set on the sea his hand, And on the rivers his right hand.

    26 He proclaimeth me: `Thou [art] my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.’

    27 I also first-born do appoint him, Highest of the kings of the earth. 28 To the age I keep for him My kindness, And My covenant [is] stedfast with him. 29 And I have set his seed for ever, And his throne as the days of the heavens. 30 If his sons forsake My law, And in My judgments do not walk; 31 If My statutes they pollute, And My commands do not keep, 32 I have looked after with a rod their transgression, And with strokes their iniquity, 33 And My kindness I break not from him, Nor do I deal falsely in My faithfulness.

    34 I profane not My covenant, And that which is going forth from My lips I change not. 35 Once I have sworn by My holiness, I lie not to David, 36 His seed is to the age, And his throne [is] as the sun before Me, 37 As the moon it is established — to the age, And the witness in the sky is stedfast. Selah.

    48 Who [is] the man that liveth, and doth not see death? He delivereth his soul from the hand of Sheol. Selah. 49 Where [are] Thy former kindnesses, O Lord. Thou hast sworn to David in Thy faithfulness, 50 Remember, O Lord, the reproach of Thy servants, I have borne in my bosom all the strivings of the peoples, 51 Wherewith Thine enemies reproached, O Jehovah, Wherewith they have reproached The steps of Thine anointed. 52 Blessed [is] Jehovah to the age. Amen, and amen!

    Psalms 132: 16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy. 17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed. 18 His enemies will I clothe with shame: but upon himself shall his crown flourish.

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time… 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    The SOLE and AMAZING GLORY of CHRIST is that he is a MAN with eternal life, and that if we believe God was able to fulfill His PURPOSE through the sanctification of His Spirit, that existed before creation, in the man that was to come, that was to be raised up of the seed of David, we too shall have eternal life. For if we believe that the ONE TRUE GOD the Father fulfills His promise, that we will ALSO be His offspring, that we will be born in His image as is the heavenly man Jesus.

    Acts 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus: 24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose. 26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. 27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him. 28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. 29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre. 30 But God raised him from the dead: 31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people. 32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers, 33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. 34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. 35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: 37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. 38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    God fulfilled His promise, this day I have begotten thee, CONCERNING his RESURRECTION being made an immortal human being!! WHY was Jesus raised from the dead?..because he was the ONLY MAN that died without having committed sin. How was Jesus the man able to do that? ..through the anointing of the One TRUE GOD the Father’s Spirit.

    #826233
     NickHassan 
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    HI LU,

    Matt 4.16

    A people living in darkness has seen a great light.

    jn 9.5

    While I am in the world I am the light of the world.

    Mt 9.14

    You are the light of the world.

     

    It speaks of the Spirit, not primarily of the vessels.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    #826249
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Jodi….Very well explained, indeed the “man” Jesus was without sin, and therefore the penalty of eternal death could not apply to him, because he was without sin, so God being true to his word, did not leave the “man” Jesus’, soul (body and spirit) in the grave. Because he had no sin, even though he was allowed to die once for us all, it was not his sin he died for, it was our sins. He did die once, but his “SOUL” never saw Coruption, and came back to life after 3 days and nights.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #826250
     Jodi 
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    Lightenup,

    You said that it was foreknown that the god son would transform into a human. This is not what any scripture says.

    Read this passage from Peter again,

    19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

    Also, read again Paul’s words, 12 unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, 13 till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,

    CHRIST represents a perfected man, that is the FULNESS of CHRIST, it has NOTHING to do with being god.What was foreordained was the precious blood of a sinless man, nothing ever about a god son becoming a man and then that man shedding his blood.

    Hebrews 2:1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment,

    3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

    5 It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. 6 But there is a place where someone has testified: “What is mankind that you are mindful of them, a son of man that you care for him?

    7 You made them a little lower than the angels; you crowned them with glory and honor 8 and put everything under their feet.”In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. 9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

    10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

    Do not ignore the salvation!! The now immortal man Jesus sitting at the right hand of the ONE TRUE GOD the father crowned with glory and honor, when he was a mortal man God was mindful to the human race caring for the son of man. For awhile this now eternal man was mortal just like us, but he was able through the anointing of the Father’s Spirit, to bring all men salvation through being made perfect by what he suffered. Now that he is in glory and honor he does not forget his days as when he was a man being able to be tempted, and thus he is not ashamed to call us his brothers and sisters. 

    Lightenup, it took a HUMAN being to bring salvation, a human that was in all ways just like us, the only difference is that he was given the Father’s Spirit to a measure that aided him to deny his flesh and remain without sin, he was tempted just like all are tempted. Because of this God could not hold him to death, as the punishment of death is sin, but he sinned not. This is the CHRIST, the anointed man with God’s Spirit, who now has glory and honor as an eternal human being.

    It was a man according to the seed of David, period, that we have our salvation. If you say it took a god to become a human in order for us to have salvation you are speaking antichrist.

    I am confused about your god Lightenup. You have two separate people make up one god. So this one god of yours had to cease to exist if you are going to testify that Jesus was fully human. Your theology does not work. How can you have Jesus be on earth fully human, and still have your god, which you say is made up of a father god and a son god, if the son god CHANGED? To make God into a human we are warned against, mind you!! Romans 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being.

    God cannot be a human being, that is pure pagan and blasphemous to God. 

    Numbers 23:19 God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill? 20 I have received a command to bless; he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

    James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

    But Lightenup you want to tell us that God changed into a human capable of being tempted??? This is blasphemous to the TRUE God and it is to speak antichrist against our brother Jesus.

    The glory and honor in CHRIST has nothing to do with him being god, that DESTROYS EVERYTHING!

    First we have the glory and honor we give to the ONE TRUE GOD the FATHER because He was able to fulfill His purpose of why he created humans in the first place, to bring them into righteousness, to make them perfect, to make them eternal, so that He could come and dwell with us. The man born of the seed of David fulfilled this purpose and was GIVEN glory and honor by becoming the heavenly man by being given the firstfruits of the One True God the Father’s Spirit of life everlasting.

    Revelation 5:12 In a loud voice they were saying: “Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”

    Revelation 7:10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    Salvation belongs not from a god son who came down, as Revelation declares, our salvation is recognized as coming through a MAN who was without spot or blemish, that shed his blood for us. It is this MAN that was slain, and it was this MAN that received power, wealth, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and praise. But Lightenup you want to tell us that we need to give honor and praise to a son god who became a man. This theology actually takes away from the TRUE glory of Jesus.

    Revelation 7:17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’ ”

    Jesus is STILL a MAN he is the heavenly man and called the LAMB. Lightenup there is no sign of your son god!!

    Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.

    Jesus is Ihsou’ß     transliterated Iesous, meaning “Jehovah is salvation”.

    The name of the ONE TRUE GOD the Father is Jehovah, and the purpose and promise of Jehovah was to bring us salvation. Jehovah brought us that salvation through a man, this is why the name Jesus means Jehovah is salvation. We have two NAMES, one is the name of the TRUE GOD the Father who is ONE being and the other name is Jesus who is the lamb, who is the mediator to the ONE TRUE GOD the FATHER. You have the LAMB (who represents the man who shed his blood and brought us salvation through the Father) and his name Jesus, and then you have the Father’s name Jehovah. 

    Revelation 21:22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 

    The Lamb is NOT the Lord Almighty, he is the heavenly man who had shed his blood.

    Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

    Recall these words, “for a man, indeed, ought not to cover the head, being the image and glory of God”, and “the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;”

    Christ the heavenly man Jesus is the image of God.

    JESUS the MAN born of the FLESH of the SEED of David SAYS,

    Mark 13: 18 and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter, 19 for those days shall be tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the creation that God created, till now, and may not be; 20 and if the Lord did not shorten the days, no flesh had been saved; but because of the chosen, whom He did choose to Himself, He did shorten the days. 21 And then, if any may say to you, Lo, here [is] the Christ, or, Lo, there, ye may not believe; 22 for there shall rise false Christs and false prophets, and they shall give signs and wonders, to seduce, if possible, also the chosen; 23 and ye, take heed; lo, I have foretold you all things. 24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 and the stars of the heaven shall be falling, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. 26 And <strong>then they shall see the Son of Man coming in clouds with much power and glory</strong>, 27 and then he shall send his messengers, and gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the end of the earth unto the end of heaven. 28And from the fig-tree learn ye the simile: when the branch may already become tender, and may put forth the leaves, ye know that nigh is the summer; 29 so ye, also, when these ye may see coming to pass, ye know that it is nigh, at the doors. 30 Verily I say to you, that this generation may not pass away till all these things may come to pass; 31 the heaven and the earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 32 `And concerning that day and the hour no one hath known — not even the messengers who are in the heaven, not even the Sonexcept the Father.

    It is the SON of MAN returning, the heavenly man. Jesus doesn’t even know when he is returning!! ONLY the ONE TRUE GOD the FATHER who created the heavens and earth according to the words of Jesus, knows when he shall return.

     

     

    #826251
     Lightenup 
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    Hi Jodi,

    I do appreciate all the time that post took. I will try to keep my response in bite size pieces.

    you said:

    Jesus came in the name of his Father, the scriptures don’t attest to Jesus being the person of the name, otherwise he would be his own father. Jesus says his Father’s name is hallowed, it is sacred.

    Actually the scriptures do attest to Jesus being Jehovah our Righteousness.

    Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.

    Do you not know anyone who has the same name as their father? It is common.

     

    #826252
     Lightenup 
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    Jodi,

    You said:

    Dr Rocco’s translation  1 Cor 8:6 To us, ours is one God The Father, for all things are from him and we are in him, and The One LORD JEHOVAH Yeshua The Messiah, for all things are by him, and we are also in his hand. Aramaic Bible in Plain English

    All other translations  1 Corinthians 8:6 yet to us [is] one God (theos) the Father, of whom [are] the all things, and we to Him; and one Lord (kurios), Jesus Christ, through whom [are] the all things, and we through Him;

    Do you realize that Jehovah is translated in the Greek as kurios? I realize that not all the “kurios” mean Jehovah but some do, therefore just by showing me that the Greek word is kurios does not prove that Jesus isn’t Jehovah. The fact that Jesus is the Lord of lords is further evidence that Jesus is indeed Lord in the highest sense as Jehovah.

    Jodi, did you realize that Jesus and His disciples spoke Aramaic? The gospel went out to the Jew first and then to the Greek. There are still Aramaic speaking churches that claim to have the original gospel in Aramaic. In that Aramaic text you will find a better understanding as to what is meant regarding the word that Greek has as “Lord.” From what I can tell, the NT was written in the language of the writer and translated to a second language by a scribe, as well, to be understood by the Jew first and also by the Greek.

    #826253
     Lightenup 
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    Jodi,

    you wrote:

    The scriptures tell us that Messiah/Christ is to come, raised up of the seed of David, he is begotten on a specific day in time which OCCURRED LONG after King David, he is a CHOSEN one OUT OF the PEOPLE to be a king for eternity, this seed of David is a MAN APPOINTED firstborn, his SOUL is delivered from the grave, in Jehovah’s NAME Jesus shall be exalted.

    Psalms 2: 1 Why have nations tumultuously assembled? And do peoples meditate vanity? 2 Station themselves do kings of the earth, And princes have been united together, Against Jehovah, and against His Messiah: 3 Let
    us draw off Their cords, And cast from us Their thick bands.' 4 He who
    is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The Lord doth mock at them. 5 Then
    doth He speak unto them in His anger, And in His wrath He doth trouble
    them: 6
    And I — I have anointed My King, Upon Zion — My holy hill.’ 7 I declare concerning a statute: Jehovah said unto me, `My Son Thou [art], I to-day have brought thee forth. 8 Ask of Me and I give nations — thy inheritance, And thy possession — the ends of earth. 9 Thou dost rule them with a sceptre of iron, As a vessel of a potter Thou dost crush them.’ 10 And now, O kings, act wisely, Be instructed, O judges of earth, 11 Serve ye Jehovah with fear, And rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Chosen One, lest He be angry, And ye lose the way, When His anger burneth but a little, O the happiness of all trusting in Him!

    The begetting that is referred to in Psalm 2 is the bringing forth from the tomb…the day of the resurrection, it is not referring to the begetting that made Him the Firstborn of all creation. Please note, that begetting in either case did not cause Him to exist, a begetting merely takes someone who already exists and brings them forth from one place to another. In this instance, the begetting brings the Son flesh body from the dead to life as a glorified body and reuniting with His spirit which He had previously committed into His Father’s hands. He is firstborn from the dead and is the first of many. He is also the firstborn of all creation as the only begotten, not one of many. You can’t just have the firstborn from the dead. You have to also know Him as the Son of God in the way of being “firstborn” of all creation and “only begotten.” Unless you know Him as both, you deny Him in truth. He is really the Son of God from everlasting and every knee will bow to Him and confess that He is Jehovah Lord to the glory of the Father. In that way, you will be giving the Son the same honor as the Father. People who only see him as a man are not giving the Son the same honor as the Father.

     

    #826254
     NickHassan 
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    Hi LU,

    They killed the man Jesus and his spirit returned to the heavenly Father of spirits.

     

    But they could not kill the anointing Spirit of life, that which is from everlasting.

    He was raised alive in the Spirit back into the torn temple curtain of his old body .

    Then, like Joshua in Zech 3.4, he was garbed in vestal robes as priest out of their sight.

    Able to enter the heavenly Holy of Holies on our behalf he helps those who are following.

    Mk 15.38, Heb 6.19,Heb 10.20. Phil 2.20-21.

    #826255
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 68,961

    Hi LU,

    Jesus was declared to be the Son of God with power, by the resurrection from the dead according to the Spirit of Holiness.

    He fulfilled all the scriptures.

    Rom 1.2

    #826256
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 62
    • Total replies 10,037

    That’s right Nick and every knee bowing and calling him Lord Jehovah is going to fulfill the scriptures too.

    Realize that the Son of God emptied Himself in order to become a man. After the resurrection, the Father gave up all His authority over heaven and earth to His Son till the Son destroys all His enemies. That’s huge!

    #826257
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 68,961

    Hi LU,

    He came and worked in the name of his Father but he was not his own Father.

    God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.2 Cor 5

     

    THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN Acts 3.22

    He was made both Lord and Christ. Acts 2.36.

    He is Lord, but not God.

     

     

    #826258
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 1,005

    Lightenup the history is not good, and we even have the Pope admitting to it now, that those not following the creeds from the RCC were murdered in the millions. Below I have some quotes, but I will posts some more information.

    What is interesting is that we see persecution by Christ’s TRUE followers at the time of his death and resurrection, by the Roman emperors. Then we have an emperor later, Constantine, who decides to unite people by creating one religion, and he uses pagans, so called “converted” pagans, to do it. Why did he want people united?.. for military conquest, to keep his own empire strong! At the time of the first creed there was dispute over the identify of Jesus, was he a man or was he a god who became a man, the later was a popular pagan belief where men were also gods from heaven.

    How perfect it would be to convert pagans into Christians if Jesus was changed into a familiar god!!!

    Constantine himself said he was a god, so Jesus being a god too worked well for him! Those that said Jesus was just a man were persecuted. The creed was established to say that Jesus was a god, and more creeds came, ones as I already stated that changed the name and days of Passover to that of pagan names and times, they also changed the Sabbath to a pagan day. Scholars argue that Constantine was never a Christian, that he continued to worship the sun. He even had a large statue made of himself using both symbols of the scriptures and pagans.

    For a long period of time from then, this church murdered millions who did not profess to the creeds. Like I said even Constantine the “converted”, the founder, the god, was himself a murderer, killing his own son and his wife. Like I said, even the Pope now admits what his church committed.

    What we have are TRUE CHRISTIANS that were first persecuted by the ROMANS, and then were later persecuted by a FALSE Church, founded under pagans and pagan beliefs.

    “On August 24, 1527, Roman Catholics in France, by prearranged plan, under Jesuit influence, murdered 70,000 Protestants within the space of two months. The Pope rejoiced when he heard the news of the successful outcome.” (Western Watchman, Nov.21, 1912 (Catholic)

    “There was no village of the Vaudois valleys but had its martyrs. The Waldenses were burned; they were cast into damp and horrid dungeons; they were smothered in crowds in mountain caverns, mothers and babes, and old men and women together; they were sent out into exile in the winter night, unclothed and unfed, to climb the snowy mountains; they were hurled over the rocks; their houses and lands were taken from them; their children were stolen to be indoctrinated with the religion which they abhorred. Rapacious individuals were sent among them to strip them of their property, to persecute and exterminate them. Thousands of heretics or Waldenses, old men, women and children, were hung, quartered, broken upon the wheel, or burned alive and their property confiscated for the benefit of the king, and Holy See.” (Thompson – The Papacy and the Civil Power)

    “That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history . . . It is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no powers of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings.” (W. E. H. Lecky, History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationalism in Europe, vol. 2, p. 32, 1910 edition)

    “From the birth of popery to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors,–an average of more than 40,000 religious murders for every year of the existence of popery to the present day. Of course the average number of victims yearly, was vastly greater, during those gloomy ages when popery was in her glory and reigned despot of the world; and it has been much less since the power of the popes has diminished to tyrannize over the nations, and to compel the princes of the earth, by the terrors of excommunication, interdiction, and deposition, to butcher their heretical subjects.” (John Dowling, The History of Romanism, pp. 541-542)

    “The church may by divine right confiscate the property of heretics, imprison their person, and condemn them to flames. In our age, the right to inflict the severest penalties, even death, belongs to the church. There is no graver offense than heresy, therefore it must be rooted out.” (Public Eccliastical, Vol. 2, p.142)

    Mr. Raywood Frazier, in the booklet ‘Catholic Words and Actions’, presents documentary proof of the intensive persecution of Protestants and non-Catholics in Columbia, South America, between 1949 and 1953. The Catholic Church had the support of the Columbian government in the destruction of many churches, and the liquidation of more than 1,000 documented cases — some of whom were shot, drowned, or emasculated. He says there is evidence of over 60,000 killed. Pope Pius XII awarded the President of Columbia with one of the highest awards which the Church bestows, and praised Columbia for its example of the Catholic faith. (Pp. 59,60)

    “Their refusal to surrender the scriptures was an offense that the Papacy could not tolerate. The Papacy was determined to exterminate the heretics from the face of the Earth. The heretics greatest offense, was that they refused to worship God according to the will of the Pope. For this crime, the heretics suffered every humiliation, insult and torture that man could event.” (Fox’s Book Of Martyrs) Tortures: 1) Hanged and their genitals were cut off. 2) The mothers were whipped. 3) The women’s breast were ripped off. 4) They were tied up and fried in a large pan. 5) Their mouths were sewed shut. 6) They were placed into a pot of boiling water. 7) Their arms and legs were cut off. 8) Some had their eyes bored out..

    “The tragical sufferings of the Protestants are too numerous to detail; but the treatment of Philip de Deux will give an idea of the rest. After the miscreants had slain this martyr in his bed, they went to his wife, who was then attended by the midwife, expecting every moment to be delivered. The midwife entreated them to stay the murder, at least till the child, which was the twentieth, should be born. Notwithstanding this, they thrust a dagger up to the hilt into the poor woman. Anxious to be delivered, she ran into a corn loft; but hither they pursued her, stabbed her in the belly, and then threw her into the street. By the fall, the child came from the dying mother, and being caught up by one of the Catholic ruffians, he stabbed the infant, and then threw it into the river.” (Fox’s Book of Martyrs, Chapter IV, The Bartholomew Massacre at Paris, etc.)

    All this bloodshed OVER heretics not following the creeds accordingly or the authority of the pope. Many of those that were murdered did follow some of the creeds, they too were in error of the pagan idea that Jesus was a god.

    #826260
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 15,942

    LU….unless you can see Jesus was a (MAN), nothing more and nothing less that GOD the Father begot, by impregnating His fleshly mother Mary, MAKING him the (ONLY) HUMAN BEING, EVER BEGOTTEN BY GOD, from all of humankind, an ordinary human being like us all, who was given the (anointing) spirit of the living God at his baptizm by John at the Jordan River, and only after that was he sent into the wilderness to be tempted, and then out into the world to preach the gospel of the knigdom of God, with all signs and wonders God the Father was working through him. If you don’t understand this, you simply do not know the true JESUS, OF SCRIPTURES.

    IF YOU TURN JESUS INTO A GOD, then you are turning his “IMAGE” into a MAN OF SIN. 2THS 2. AND COMMITING IDOLATRY. JESUS is one of us humans , he is not A GOD, NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE EITHER.

    You are truly being witnessed to here LU.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #826264
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 1,005

    Hi Lightenup,

    I do greatly appreciate you taking time to read my long posts, and I will try and respond with shorter posts too. 🙂

    #826275
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 62
    • Total replies 10,037

    Hi Jodi,

    I’m glad that you also appreciate my time, thank you for mentioning that.

    you said:

    What is interesting is that we see persecution by Christ’s TRUE followers at the time of his death and resurrection, by the Roman emperors.

    I don’t believe those “TRUE followers” were confessing that Jesus was just a man and should therefore not be worshiped, as you do. I believe it was quite the opposite. Those followers were worshiping Jesus.

    Also, not all Christians who confess the Nicene Creed are Catholic. I am not Catholic. Have you looked at the violence done by the Jews in the OT in the name of Jehovah? It is stunning. I have read through the OT chronologically starting in January and by August I was so in need of the good news of the coming of the Savior and Redeemer. I know enough not to believe that Jehovah is not good, but I can’t say that I understand why He did some things the way He did. Take the Amalek conquest for instance…

    1Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. 2“Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

    Does that history sound good to you?

    So, with that in mind, your point regarding people being killed over differing views are two sided. Now we have ISIS killing over religion and they believe that Jesus was just a man too, that God does not have a son and He does not beget.

    The best we can do is love according to the two commandments: Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, and mind. Love our neighbor as ourselves.

    For me, the command to love the Son is in the first commandment with the Father. It seems that you love the Son as your neighbor; as you love yourself, according to the second commandment. The Son, in my faith is higher than myself. In your faith, the Son is equal to you, like a neighbor would be. I see Him as equal to the Father, not in authority because He is a son but in essence, together they are the Lord God. I do not see the Son as equal to myself. That is a big difference to me. One of us is denying which command we should follow in regards to the Son.

    I see all creatures giving the same honor to the Son as to the Father in the future. If the Son were merely another creature, this honor to him would be blasphemous. You seem to disagree with that.

    Rev 5:11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice,

    “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”
    13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the dominion forever and ever.”

    14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

    So think about it that way…Do you honor the Son as a neighbor and yourself or do you honor the Son as the Lord your God, one with the Father? There are only two commandments. Put the Son in the wrong commandment and you deny His rightful place. There is no in-between commandment. He is either equal to us and our neighbors or He, together with the Father, is higher than us and our neighbors.

    Ask yourself what commandment do you think David has Him in. David calls Him “Lord,” btw.

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