Firstborn of/over all creation

This topic contains 3,619 replies, has 33 voices, and was last updated by  GeneBalthrop 1 day, 12 hours ago.

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  • #822289
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 890
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    @mikeboll64

    Gidday mate. long time no hear.
    I hope all is good at your place.

    I would be interested in a discussion on that topic. I always thought you were a fair and reasonable guy, so I enjoy discussing things with you.
    While I hold the general scientific view of celestial objects, I am willing to hear the evidence.

    🙂

    #822293
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 70,325

    Hi T8,

    Don’t shoot the messenger.

    Keep the peace.

    #822305
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 79
    • Total replies 25,089

    Thanks for the kind words, everyone. Sorry Gene, I can’t help with any of those people. Did Kerwin and Pierre just up and disappear without warning? Hope they’re okay. T8, I don’t have the kind of time I used to back in the day, but I’d love to run what I’ve learned by you guys. I’ll figure out how and where to put the thread, and make a post. But be patient as it may take a few days for me to respond to any replies. (Working killer hours.)

    #822313
     Ed J 
    Participant
    • Topics started 155
    • Total replies 27,955

    remember that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature, and then his and our God Jehovah created all other things through him.

    Hi Mike,

    “Firstborn over creation” refers to Christ’s preeminence,
    not a spirit creation order as you are presuming
    Christ is called the first-born of the dead.

    _______________
    God bless
    Ed J

    #822342
     t8 
    Participant
    • Topics started 890
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    Thanks Nick. Would be good to keep the peace as you say. Here’s hoping.

    #822370
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,302

    Well hello all ya’ll, nice to see some familiar people from the past days when we spent hours and hours digging into God’s Word here! Glad that this thread is getting some recent action and showing up in my email. Those days were intense at times and also very enlightening and sometimes even very disappointing. I love what I learned from all that digging. I cling to the truths that I found back then. My kiddos are all grown up and I have some time on my hands to get back to meaningful discussions/challenges. Currently I am helping Middle East refugees learn English through a ministry at my church…most of them are Muslims. I thank Boditharta for helping me understand their faith better. They are dear to me.

    Last year about this time, I had a couple of gentlemen come knocking at my door that were JW’s. This message board had really helped me prepare to challenge them. Presently, I am learning more about the New Agers through their testimonies on YouTube regarding how they came out of the New Age and turned to Jesus. I just met a New Ager in the pool at my water aerobics class and began challenging her on some of the things she was claiming. I really hope the LORD gives me more of an opportunity to help her.

    But, to the point of this thread…

    Mikeboll (so nice to see you, btw) said this:

    Anyway, nice to “see” you guys again… and remember that Jesus was the firstborn of every creature, and then his and our God Jehovah created all other things through him.

    What I remember, Mikeboll, is that Jehovah, the Lord of lords (Jesus), is the firstborn of all creation and thus the Beginning of the creation of God . In Him (in the”Beginning”) all things were created…all things visible and invisible in heaven and on earth.

    I hope everyone is doing well 🙂

    LU

     

    #822384
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
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    Mikeboil….I know Kerwin had a bad kidney problem, and would have to go in for treatments at times. I hope he is ok, something we can all pry about, perhaps the Lord will cause him to come back, hope so, same with all others to. This is a site that CAN truly sharpens us all up. JESUS SAID WE WOULD BE TRIED BY FIRE (INTENSE JUDGEMENTS)

    Remember what scripture says, Jesus would baptize with Spirit “and” fire. (Intense judgements). Iron does indeed sharpen iron. IMO

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #822400
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 79
    • Total replies 25,089

    Hi Ed, of course firstborn of every creature means the creature who was born/made/begotten/created first. As Kathi and I determined years ago (great to hear what you’ve been up to K), “firstborn” has, as its default meaning, “the one who was born first”. While the word is used idiosyncratically in a few scriptures, the context of those scriptures makes it clear that it is being used metaphorically, and not literally. There is no such implication in Col 1, or in Rev 3:14.

    Hey Kathi, I’ve started a flat earth thread, and would love to hear your input if you get the chance. I can use all the iron I can get… especially tried and true iron like yours.

    Gene, thanks for the update about Kerwin. I know Pierre had been suffering from pancreatic cancer for years… even back before I drifted away. He (and Ed) was on the other site I went to for a while, but I was intensely wrapped up in the creation/evolution debate, and so our paths didn’t cross all that often. I didn’t know about Kerwin’s situation.

    Does anyone else miss Shimmer? I always felt she had a kind spirit, and I hope things have begun to look up for her. Anyway, I have very limited time for now, and want to focus on the flat earth thread. So I might not respond to any future posts in this thread… just so you know.

    #822407
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,302

    @mikeboll64

    Mike, Mike, Mike…you are so not done here. We need to go through Col. 1:15 some more! The firstborn of every creature would be the first born offspring of each creature. In other words,  the first baby calf born to the mommy and daddy cows, the first baby child born to the mommy and daddy humans, the first baby colt born to the mommy and daddy horses, etc. Most all translations use the phrase “the firstborn of all creation” which is very different than the firstborn of every creature. The firstborn of every Israelite, for example, would be each Israelite’s first child to be born out of the womb.

    I’m pretty sure you agree that Jesus wasn’t the first born calf, and the first born colt, and the first born puppy, etc.

    What we did agree on way back when was that Jesus did not take the place of another who was born before Him. He did not take the position of firstborn from an older sibling. Also, the Greek word for firstborn does not mean first “created”…ever. There is another Greek word for that.

    I believe that you would agree that Jesus, being the firstborn from the dead does not mean first “created” from the dead, right? We know that Jesus existed before He was dead. Jesus also existed before He was born as the firstborn of or from anything.

    I may look at the flat earth thread but I really think that has been settled, the earth is round, we can see that from the view from space.

    Nice to chat with you, Mike. Glad you are well. I hope your son is doing well also.

    LU

    #822408
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
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    Hi LU,

    Scripture is spiritual and speaks of the Spirit of Christ.

    Flesh was made of the soil of created earth.

    Flesh contributes nothing. Jn 6.63

    #822409
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
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    Hi LU,

    At the start of this thread your posts are full of the words of the so called church fathers.

    Their thoughts are the of the world and their reliance on reasoning led men away from truth.

    What miracles are attributed to them? What fruit did they produce? They led the great apostasy.

     

    Nothing written since the apostles can be trusted.

     

    #822411
     miia 
    Participant
    • Topics started 28
    • Total replies 1,475

    I’m still around Mike, nice to see you!! (Shimmer /karmarie)

    #822412
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 42
    • Total replies 16,377

    Miia…..I DIDN’T KNOW YOU WERE SHIMMER, GOOD TO KNOW THAT SIS.

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #822414
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,302

    Hi Nick,

    Of course we look to the Spirit to teach us. I agree with you. That is exactly what I did when I wanted to know what Col. 1:15 meant.

    I asked the LORD that question in the middle of December 1992 after being challenged by some JW’s who came knocking at my door and asked me about that phrase “firstborn of all creation.” I was determined to seek the answer with just prayer and the Bible and listening to the Spirit to start out with. Within a few days I saw Jesus as the actual son/offspring of God the Father, not just someone designated to be the son of God.  After about a month of testing that concept with just the Bible and listening to God, I began to ask more questions. Then in the middle of January, 1993 I was homeschooling my son who was just starting his schooling after a Christmas break. We were studying about creation and I started to review with him. All of the sudden, I heard in my left ear “you are the light of the world” out of nowhere after I asked my son what happened on the first day of creation and my son said that God said “let there be light.” I was astonished to hear what I heard in my left ear just after what I heard my son say. I remember pausing and wondering if I was just told when the son was begotten..when He actually became the firstborn. I began testing that thought that the Son was begotten on day one and that the Son (or at least something to do with his begetting) was the light of day one of creation. I think about it daily still. It wasn’t till I had started here on HN about 16 years later, that the church fathers’ writings were brought into some discussion and not by me. I hadn’t read that stuff beforehand. I found http://www.CCEL.org which is a great source for the church fathers’ writings and dug into them mainly to continue my testing. You see, the church fathers didn’t initiate my thoughts that I was testing, they gave further witness of it.

    Thank you for your concern though. It is nice to hear from you!

    LU

    #822415
     mikeboll64 
    Participant
    • Topics started 79
    • Total replies 25,089

    Kathi, I agree Jesus wasn’t the firstborn calf, but he was the firstborn god.  Then the Most High God made a whole bunch of other gods with names like Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer before creating our heavens and earth, biological animals and finally humans… of which, coincidentally, Adam was the firstborn and didn’t come from a human daddy.

    As for the shape of the earth, I will challenge you to let scripture guide you.  For example, in Joshua 10:12, he did not command the earth to stop spinning, but instead the sun and the moon to stand still where they were in the sky.  That’s because, according to scripture, the earth is fixed, stationary, and cannot be moved – while the sun, moon and stars move around IN the firmament on their God-appointed circuits.

    Also, in Rev 6:13 and Mark 13:25, we’re told that stars will fall to earth from the sky.  If stars are really huge fireballs millions of times bigger than the earth, Jesus is a liar.

    But please at least come to the flat earth thread and hear me out.  I promise you I have not lost my mind, but have merely began to test the heliocentric model we’ve all been indoctrinated into, and am finding it to be lacking in many respects – not least of all scripturally.

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