Firstborn of/over all creation

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  • #265252
     Lightenup 
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    What did the ante-nicene church fathers say about the Son as the firstborn of/over all creation? Do they indicate that the Son was the first to come forth from God and then through Him all things came into being? Or did they indicate something else by calling him the firstborn of/over all creation (Col 1)?

    Put ante-nicene church fathers quotes on here and let's see if there was a common understanding. Let this thread just be quotes from the church fathers with online sources sited.

    Let's just look at their words.

    #265251
     Lightenup 
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    Here is one:

    Quote
    Theophilus to Autolycus Book II
    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-02/anf02-42.htm#P1669_480398
    You will say, then, to me: “You said that God ought not to be contained in a place, and how do you now say that He walked in Paradise? “Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam. For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Not as the poets and writers of myths talk of the sons of gods begotten from intercourse [with women], but as truth expounds, the Word, that always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason. And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,” showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, “The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence.” The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.


    found here: http://www.forananswer.org/Top_Uni/ECF_Jn1_1.htm

    #265249
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Here is one…

    Clement of Alexandria: Fragments Part 1

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.ix.html

    “There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate.”

    No beginning found there.

    WJ

    #265250
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Here is one…

    Tertullian: Against Praxeas

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.xii.html

    “[God speaks in the plural ‘Let us make man in our image’] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and a third, the Spirit in the Word….one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.”

    There is the “One being” and not the God beget another equal God” or a firstborn God.

    WJ

    #265248
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Here is one…

    Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical Fragments

    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3712_1172813

    These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One.

    Again no “firstborn” or begotten God who had a beginning as another being.

    WJ

    #265253
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:27)
    Here is one…

    Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical Fragments

    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3712_1172813

    These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One.

    Again no “firstborn” or begotten God who had a beginning as another being.

    WJ


    Regarding Hippolytus and firstborn:

    Quote
    At the end of the four empires according to Dan 7:17-18 the heavenly reign will start
    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, to whom everything on earth and in
    heaven has been subordinated, the firstborn “before the angels” and the first born “from
    the dead” (IV,11).18

    http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Oegema_Daniel.pdf

    Hippolytus says that He was firstborn before the angels here.

    #265254
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:24)
    Here is one…

    Tertullian: Against Praxeas

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.xii.html

    “[God speaks in the plural ‘Let us make man in our image’] because already there was attached to Him his Son, a second person, his own Word, and a third, the Spirit in the Word….one substance in three coherent persons. He was at once the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.”

    There is the “One being” and not the God beget another equal God” or a firstborn God.

    WJ


    Regarding Tertullian:

    Quote
    Then, therefore, does the Word also Himself assume His own form and glorious garb, His own sound and vocal utterance, when God says, “Let there be light.” This is the perfect nativity of the Word, when He proceeds forth from God—formed by Him first to devise and think out all things under the name of Wisdom—“The Lord created or formed me as the beginning of His ways;” then afterward begotten, to carry all into effect—“When He prepared the heaven, I was present with Him.” Thus does He make Him equal to Him: for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things; and His only-begotten also, because alone begotten of God, in a way peculiar to Himself, from the womb of His own heart—even as the Father Himself testifies: “My heart,” says He, “hath emitted my most excellent Word.”The Father took pleasure evermore in Him, who equally rejoiced with a reciprocal gladness in the Father’s presence: “Thou art my Son, to-day have I begotten Thee;” even before the morning star did I beget Thee.


    found: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf03.v.ix.vii.html

    Please note why the Son is the first begotten:

    for by proceeding from Himself He became His first-begotten Son, because begotten before all things;

    This says that the Son is the first-begotten Son because He proceeded FROM the Father, not because He was designated by the Father.

    #265255
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,09:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:27)
    Here is one…

    Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical Fragments

    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3712_1172813

    These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One.

    Again no “firstborn” or begotten God who had a beginning as another being.

    WJ


    Regarding Hippolytus and firstborn:

    Quote
    At the end of the four empires according to Dan 7:17-18 the heavenly reign will start
    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, to whom everything on earth and in
    heaven has been subordinated, the firstborn “before the angels” and the first born “from
    the dead” (IV,11).18

    http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Oegema_Daniel.pdf

    Hippolytus says that He was firstborn before the angels here.


    Thank you Kathi

    You have once again proved that they do not believe that Jesus is a God who was born from God as a seperate God!

    Do you think they were confused when they said the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is “One God”

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” IF, THEN, THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS ALSO GOD, WHAT FOLLOWS? WOULD ONE SAY THAT HE SPEAKS OF TWO GODS? I SHALL NOT INDEED SPEAK OF TWO GODS, BUT OF ONE; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit.

    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, TO WHOM EVERYTHING ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN HAS BEEN SUBORDINATED,

    Get it, firstborn meaning everything in earth and in heaven has been subordinated to him because the term firstborn in eastern culture did not always mean first in time but spoke of one having preeminence.

    Their use of the word was in line with the prophesy of Jesus…

    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    WJ

    #265256
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:22)
    Here is one…

    Clement of Alexandria: Fragments Part 1

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iv.ix.html

    “There was; then, a Word importing an unbeginning eternity; as also the Word itself, that is, the Son of God, who being, by equality of substance, one with the Father, is eternal and uncreate.”

    No beginning found there.

    WJ


    Regarding Clement:

    Quote
    Though the Logos is most closely one with the Father, whose powers he resumes in himself, yet to Clement both the Son and the Spirit are “first-born powers and first created”; they form the highest stages in the scale of intelligent being, and Clement distinguishes the Son-Logos from the Logos who is immutably immanent in God, and thus gives a foundation to the charge of Photius that he “degraded the Son to the rank of a creature.” Separate from the world as the principle of creation, he is yet in it as its guiding principle.

    from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria

    Clement thought firstborn meant firstcreated. Firstborn was not a designation to show preeminence but to show the first to be created. Although I disagree with that, I am just showing what Clement thought.

    #265257
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,10:51)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,09:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:27)
    Here is one…

    Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical Fragments

    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3712_1172813

    These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One.

    Again no “firstborn” or begotten God who had a beginning as another being.

    WJ


    Regarding Hippolytus and firstborn:

    Quote
    At the end of the four empires according to Dan 7:17-18 the heavenly reign will start
    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, to whom everything on earth and in
    heaven has been subordinated, the firstborn “before the angels” and the first born “from
    the dead” (IV,11).18

    http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Oegema_Daniel.pdf

    Hippolytus says that He was firstborn before the angels here.


    Thank you Kathi

    You have once again proved that they do not believe that Jesus is a God who was born from God as a seperate God!

    Do you think they were confused when they said the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is “One God”

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” IF, THEN, THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS ALSO GOD, WHAT FOLLOWS? WOULD ONE SAY THAT HE SPEAKS OF TWO GODS? I SHALL NOT INDEED SPEAK OF TWO GODS, BUT OF ONE; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit.

    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, TO WHOM EVERYTHING ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN HAS BEEN SUBORDINATED,

    Get it, firstborn meaning everything in earth and in heaven has been subordinated to him because the term firstborn in eastern culture did not always mean first in time but spoke of one having preeminence.

    Their use of the word was in line with the prophesy of Jesus…

    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    WJ


    Keith,
    The firstborn “before the angels” shows a sequence.

    Also, I am not saying that there is more than one unbegotten God.

    #265258
     Lightenup 
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    Keith,
    you wrote:

    Quote
    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    This is spoken about David and accomplished because of Christ, as the Son of David.

    #265259
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:05)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,10:51)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,09:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:27)
    Here is one…

    Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical Fragments

    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3712_1172813

    These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One.

    Again no “firstborn” or begotten God who had a beginning as another being.

    WJ


    Regarding Hippolytus and firstborn:

    Quote
    At the end of the four empires according to Dan 7:17-18 the heavenly reign will start
    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, to whom everything on earth and in
    heaven has been subordinated, the firstborn “before the angels” and the first born “from
    the dead” (IV,11).18

    http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Oegema_Daniel.pdf

    Hippolytus says that He was firstborn before the angels here.


    Thank you Kathi

    You have once again proved that they do not believe that Jesus is a God who was born from God as a seperate God!

    Do you think they were confused when they said the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is “One God”

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” IF, THEN, THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS ALSO GOD, WHAT FOLLOWS? WOULD ONE SAY THAT HE SPEAKS OF TWO GODS? I SHALL NOT INDEED SPEAK OF TWO GODS, BUT OF ONE; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit.

    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, TO WHOM EVERYTHING ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN HAS BEEN SUBORDINATED,

    Get it, firstborn meaning everything in earth and in heaven has been subordinated to him because the term firstborn in eastern culture did not always mean first in time but spoke of one having preeminence.

    Their use of the word was in line with the prophesy of Jesus…

    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    WJ


    Keith,
    The firstborn “before the angels” shows a sequence.

    Also, I am not saying that there is more than one unbegotten God.


    No Firstborn “Over” all creation means all creation is subordinate to him including the Angels that were created.

    AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist. Col 1:17

    WJ

    #265260
     WorshippingJesus 
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    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:16)
    Keith,
    you wrote:

    Quote
    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    This is spoken about David and accomplished because of Christ, as the Son of David.


    Kathi

    But the fact that Jesus is made the “firstborn” is proof that the term is not speaking of procreation.

    WJ

    #265261
     Lightenup 
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    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:26)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:16)
    Keith,
    you wrote:

    Quote
    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    This is spoken about David and accomplished because of Christ, as the Son of David.


    Kathi

    But the fact that Jesus is made the “firstborn” is proof that the term is not speaking of procreation.

    WJ


    David was made firstborn, the Son of God was firstborn by nature. The verse in Psalms was directed to David. David wasn't firstborn by nature, therefore if God were to relate to him as a firstborn, he had to be made to be firstborn by designation. The Son did not, He was the firstborn of God by nature and by sequence as related to creation.

    #265262
     Lightenup 
    Participant
    • Topics started 63
    • Total replies 10,171

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,11:24)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,11:05)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,10:51)

    Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2010,09:21)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2010,00:27)
    Here is one…

    Hippolytus: Dogmatical and Historical Fragments

    http://ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-18.htm#P3712_1172813

    These things then, brethren, are declared by the Scriptures. And the blessed John, in the testimony of his Gospel, gives us an account of this economy (disposition) and acknowledges this Word as God, when he says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” If, then, the Word was with God, and was also God, what follows? Would one say that he speaks of two Gods? I shall not indeed speak of two Gods, but of one; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit. The Father decrees, the Word executes, and the Son is manifested, through whom the Father is believed on. The economy of harmony is led back to one God; for God is One.

    Again no “firstborn” or begotten God who had a beginning as another being.

    WJ


    Regarding Hippolytus and firstborn:

    Quote
    At the end of the four empires according to Dan 7:17-18 the heavenly reign will start
    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, to whom everything on earth and in
    heaven has been subordinated, the firstborn “before the angels” and the first born “from
    the dead” (IV,11).18

    http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/Oegema_Daniel.pdf

    Hippolytus says that He was firstborn before the angels here.


    Thank you Kathi

    You have once again proved that they do not believe that Jesus is a God who was born from God as a seperate God!

    Do you think they were confused when they said the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is “One God”

    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” IF, THEN, THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS ALSO GOD, WHAT FOLLOWS? WOULD ONE SAY THAT HE SPEAKS OF TWO GODS? I SHALL NOT INDEED SPEAK OF TWO GODS, BUT OF ONE; of two Persons however, and of a third economy (disposition), viz., the grace of the Holy Ghost. For the Father indeed is One, but there are two Persons, because there is also the Son; and then there is the third, the Holy Spirit.

    (IV:10). Christ is the firstborn, the Son of God, TO WHOM EVERYTHING ON EARTH AND IN HEAVEN HAS BEEN SUBORDINATED,

    Get it, firstborn meaning everything in earth and in heaven has been subordinated to him because the term firstborn in eastern culture did not always mean first in time but spoke of one having preeminence.

    Their use of the word was in line with the prophesy of Jesus…

    Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. Pss 89:27

    WJ


    Keith,
    The firstborn “before the angels” shows a sequence.

    Also, I am not saying that there is more than one unbegotten God.


    No Firstborn “Over” all creation means all creation is subordinate to him including the Angels that were created.

    AND HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by him all things consist. Col 1:17

    WJ


    Keith,
    The Son is over all things and is before all things aside from the unbegotten God that begat Him.

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