Examination of the incarnation doctrine.

This topic contains 3,211 replies, has 23 voices, and was last updated by  mikeboll64 6 years, 1 month ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #237235
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    If I understand this “Incarnation” trinity theory, you are telling me that Jesus preexisted with the Father in eternity, then “incarnated” by the Holy spirit in the womb of Mary.

    Scripture tells a far different story. At least three times in three different accounts, we are told that Jesus is the seed of Adam or the woman (Eve), in Messianic prophecies.

    We are told of the seed promise beginning with Gen 3:15, where the woman is told “Thy seed” so the incarnation begins with this woman of prophecy. Then her progeny carry that seed, and passed it on through several generations till Abraham is specifically mentioned by name, as one in a long line of the “seed carriers.” He is promised that “through thy seed” all nations will be blessed. It is similar to the promise first made to “the woman” of Gen 3:15.

    Then Abrahams line begins in turn, to carry that seed from father to son to son to son through a long line of seed carriers. It goes in promise through Isaac, Jacob/Israel, Judah, Jesse, David, Mary, of whom it is said Jesus “was made of a woman” just like the promise began way back in Gen 3:15.

    If there is indeed an “incarnation” where did it take place. I contend it would have been in the woman of Gen 3:15, because each carrier of the seed would be “carnate” and the seed would be within, or “incarnate.”

    The seed had to be passed from generation to generation, for each generation in turn would “excarnate” so the seed would have to have been passed prior to that “excarnation” event.

    The passing of the seed is parammount to comprehension of the “incarnation” of the Christ.

    #237246
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 41
    • Total replies 15,640

    Paladin………..So does that apply to all of us also because we also decended from the women are we incarnated being also.?

    peace and love…………………………………..gene

    #237259
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2011,02:16)
    Paladin………..So does that apply to all of us also because we also decended from the women are we incarnated being also.?

    peace and love…………………………………..gene


    Hello Gene;

    I alsways thought so. I see the word “carnal” within the parameters of “incarnate.” All it means is “in flesh.”

    #237268
     Baker 
    Member
    • Topics started 2
    • Total replies 2,348

    Paladin! Hello, how about all these Scriptures

    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He din't exist before the World was. Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father… Sitting on the Throne next to Him. Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Peace and love Irene

    #237288
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    Quote (Baker @ Feb. 25 2011,07:10)
    Paladin!  Hello, how about all these Scriptures

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

      Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

    Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

    Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  
    Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  
    Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  
    Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jhn 6:46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.  

    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He din't exist before the World was.  Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

    Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father…  Sitting on the Throne next to Him.  Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Peace and love Irene


    (Irene)

    Quote
    Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins: Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Fair question. I do not wonder that Jesus is the image of God, for he is a man, and all men are the image fo God. “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:”

    Quote
    Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    See that little limiting parameter there in the verse, Irene?
    “Whether…” tells us the scope and depth of “all things” of which it is said he is the creator; ” For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers…”

    So Christ created all things, “whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers…”

    This is a reference to the downward adjustment all thrones, dominions, principalities and powers had to make when he was raised to the right hand of God, to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom of God. They had to shift down one position.

    Quote
    Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Right! Resurrected christ is first, then when the resurrection of all takes place, he will at that point “have been first.”

    Quote
    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    Right! The creation of God began with heaven and earth and all that therein is; then proceeded to resurrected “new” beings, never before seen in creation. And Jesus was first of those firstborn from the dead, and as first, until the general resurrection, he will be the “only begotten” from the dead.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    “In the beginning was ho logos, and ho logos was with ton theon, and ho logos was theos.”

    “ho logos” and “theos” are not interchangable terms, because
    “theos” is unarticulated. When “ho logos” became flesh,
    “theos” did not. If you assume “ho logos” and “theos” to be interchangeable, you then have all of God being all of what
    “ho logos” is, because “theos” would have to be “ho theos,” with the article like “ho logos” and you will have Sabellianism.

    As A. T. Robertson says on page 768, The absence of the article here is on purpose and essential to the true idea.”

    Another misapplied option, is to do what the JW's do with this verse, i.e., translate “the logos was a God.” It is not supported by the Greek, for the Greek has no indefinite article, and the English does not require it for comprehension.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    Jesus said to his disciples “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. “And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” [John 16:4]

    Jesus was with the disciples in the beginning of his minist
    ry, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the beginning of creation. Jesus and John are speaking of the same beginning. And since John tells us later (69 a.d.) in the Revelation, that Jesus will be given a new name, and that name will be “the Logos of God,” then “the logos of God” could not have been Jesus' name at the beginning of his ministry, nor at the creation beginning.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Look to II Cor 5:17 for a clue as to the language John uses in John 1:3, and how the words are used in both passages;

    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen [become] new.” [II COr 5:17]

    “All things became egeneto [were made] by him; and without him not any thing egeneto [became] that gegonen [has become].” [John 1:3]

    For just a touch more enlightenment as to how this word is used in scripture, look for a moment at Luke 23:12 “And the same day Pilate and Herod egenonto [were made] friends together…” All these wordforms are derived from the Greek
    “ginomai” which references a change that takes place, as in a new creation, rather than the original creation.

    Quote

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    When “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.

    Quote
    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Right! If John tells us “ho logos tou theou” – a new name, it could not have been a prior known name, which is supported by the Greek use of “kainon” which means “new,not previously known, not previously used.”

    And John is not telling us “ho logos” is a name of God, but that it is a name of something that belongs to God; i.e, “ho logos.”

    Quote

    Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jesus was telling the Jews “before Abraham became (ginomai) I was.” He is referencing the Messianic prophecies. Jesus, in prophecy, preceded Abraham.

    That Greek “eimi” can be properly understood to mean “was” is supported by at least two verses in which “eimi” is translated
    “was,” the 1st is found in Luke 19:22 “And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I [eimi] was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:” [Eimi is present active 1st person singular in this reference – but it is translated to accomodate “knewest” which is pluperfect active] [The pluperfect is used to describe an action that was completed and whose effects are felt at a time after the completion but prior to the time of the speaker's present.]

    And the 2nd is found in II Chron 33:13 – “And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he eimi was God.”
    [eimi is present active 3rd person singular][translated “was” to accomodate aorist active “known” [egnw].

    Quote
    Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    Both John 6:46 and 8:47 reference “He that is of God” –
    John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save [o` w'n] (he which) is tou theou [of God], he hath seen the Father.

    John 8:47 [ho wn] (He that is) of [tou theou] (God) heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    The person is “of God” that listens to God's words, and does them. Too many Church teachers know only of Jesus as being “of God” but that is not scriptural.

    Quote
    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He dind't exist before the World was.

    The same way Abraham “rejoiced to see my day” and was glad. Abraham paid attention to God's promises, and accepted them as truth. And it was not “before he came to earth” as you suggest. Nothing of the sort is referenced in the referenced verse.

    Quote

    Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

    Jhn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    It is the glory God promised in scripture, “He shall be extolled and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]

    Just as we were promised eternal life before the world began -“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” [Titus 1:2]

    Quote
    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father… Sitting on the Throne next to Him. Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Do you really think the sea is going to hold spirits, and the earth is going to hols spirits until resurrection? No my friend, they will hold corrupted bodies until the spirit is reunited with them, to become once more eternally living souls. And that is God's “new heaven and new earth, created by Jesus Christ.

    Quote
    Peace and love Irene

    And grace and hope.

    #237323
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 41
    • Total replies 15,640

    Paladin……….Very good points brother. I also believe Jesus did not preexist his berth on earth except in the Plan and foreknowledge of GOD. I also believe Jesus was the first from among Mankind to be in the New creation of God. He will alway hold the title of the First (BORN) into the Kingdom of GOD. He is also First from man kind to inherit eternal life. He is said to be First OF (MANY) BRETHREN.

    peace and love…………………………………………………..gene

    #237329
     Ed J 
    Participant
    • Topics started 155
    • Total replies 27,583

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)
    “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.


    Hi Paladin,

                     YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
    I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people. And will be a Father unto you, and ye
    shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2Cor.6:16,18)

    “Theos” (according to Paladin) will NOT become flesh?

    יד(14).  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱ־לֹהִים אֶל מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם:
    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),” and
    He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'

    Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
    יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

    For more on Theomatics…   (Click Here)
    .

    #237342
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,15:48)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)
    “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.


    Hi Paladin,

                     YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
    I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people. And will be a Father unto you, and ye
    shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2Cor.6:16,18)

    “Theos” (according to Paladin) will NOT become flesh?

    יד(14).  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱ־לֹהִים אֶל מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם:
    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),” and
    He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'

    Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
    יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

    For more on Theomatics…   (Click Here)
    .


    Hello Ed;

    you offered

    Quote

    YHVH(63) = will be(63)

    I offer Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
    egw = singular personal prononun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho = singular definite article = “THE”
    theos = singular noun = “GOD”

    And I offer Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
    egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho = singular definite article = “THE”
    wn = present active singular participle = “BEING”
    [A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]

    I have read a few of your numerology posts, and may I offer an observation? It will explain in part why I do not rely on tht system for my understanding of scriptural teaching.

    When Moses wrote the pentateuch, many of the alphabets of modern times did not exist. To understand a number value assigned to a certain letter, requires some semblance of stability. i.e., the numbers won't change over time and be assigned to other letters.

    That did not happen with the Greek, nor the Hebrew, nor the Englsih alphabets. Look at the Greek alphabet for one example, which used to have two letters it does not now include. Where did their numbers go? They were reasigned to other letters. Did the letters change in value? Well, that is the issue isn't it?

    Did the message of the letters in combination change? That is another issue not resolved.

    Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
    “to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.

    There are even words now in the testaments that have changed in spelling over time, which changes the numeric assignment, and the message. I cannot trust any system that has built in evolution within itself in such a fashion of ambiguity.

    No ammount of manipulation of numbers, will ever get me to realign my understanding upon which I place my faith in the true and living God.

    Thanks for listening.

    Now, as to your post – God is spirit, and by that simple quality, can indwell without becoming, i.e., God can dwell in the saint without becoming the saint. God cannot become flesh. God created flesh, and cannot become his own creation. That would imply God creates himself. And that I do not believe.

    It was “ho logos” that became flesh and “ho logos” is not God;
    there is no verse in scripture that says “ho logos is ho theos.”
    The reason there is no such verse, is because it is not the case that “ho logos is ho theos.” That is why John said “ho logos was theos.” Becasue John was directed by inspiration of the Holy spirit, to understand that “ho logos” was one thing, and changed to something else, while the thing ho logos was, did not make that same change.

    Now, there are many who get all bent out of shape when someone says God is “ir” or is a “thing.” They need to become more familiar with scripture before they get hostile. Look at how even the translators understood the truth of the matter;

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    As for God being identified as “it,” There are so many places in scripture people read them all the time and don;t even give it a thought, because it is so “vernacular thinking.” We are provided several verses, of which I will provide one or more to give the unknowledgeable a starting place in their research;

    Verses wherein the translators have no problem with referencing God as “it,” “The God,” “This our God.”

    “IT” is my Father, and your God
    John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: [IT] is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

    “IT” is God
    Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.

    Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Josh 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the L
    ORD your God, he [it is] that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

    Josh 24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

    2 Sam 22:48 It [is] God that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me,

    Psa 18:32 [IT is] God that…

    Psa 18:47 [IT is] God that avengeth me…

    Psa 60:12 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that] shall…

    Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [IT is] he [that]

    Psa 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that]…

    Isa 36:7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is IT] not he…

    Rom 3:30 Seeing [IT is] one God, which shall…..

    Rom 8:33 …..[IT is] God that……

    1 Cor 12:6 … but IT is THE same God WHICH…..

    “THIS” is God
    Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, THIS [is] our God;

    #237343
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2011,14:56)
    Paladin……….Very good points brother. I also believe Jesus did not preexist his berth on earth except in the Plan and foreknowledge of GOD. I also believe Jesus was the first from among Mankind to be in the New creation of God. He will alway hold the title of the First (BORN) into the Kingdom of GOD. He is also First from man kind to inherit eternal life. He is said to be First OF (MANY) BRETHREN.

    peace and love…………………………………………………..gene


    and Grace and Hope to you

    #237348
     Ed J 
    Participant
    • Topics started 155
    • Total replies 27,583

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55)

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,15:48)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)
    “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.


    Hi Paladin,

                     YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
    I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people. And will be a Father unto you, and ye
    shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2Cor.6:16,18)

    “Theos” (according to Paladin) will NOT become flesh?

    יד(14).  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱ־לֹהִים אֶל מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם:
    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),” and
    He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'

    Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
    יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

    For more on Theomatics…   (Click Here)
    .


    Hello Ed;

    you offered

    Quote

      YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    I offer Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
    egw = singular personal prononun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    theos = singular noun = “GOD”

    And I offer Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
    egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    wn  = present active singular participle = “BEING”
    [A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]

    I have read a few of your numerology posts, and may I offer an observation? It will explain in part why I do not rely on tht system for my understanding of scriptural teaching.

    When Moses wrote the pentateuch, many of the alphabets of modern times did not exist. To understand a number value assigned to a certain letter, requires some semblance of stability. i.e., the numbers won't change over time and be assigned to other letters.

    That did not happen with the Greek, nor the Hebrew, nor the Englsih alphabets. Look at the Greek alphabet for one example, which used to have two letters it does not now include. Where did their numbers go? They were reasigned to other letters. Did the letters change in value? Well, that is the issue isn't it?

    Did the message of the letters in combination change? That is another issue not resolved.

    Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
    “to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers  may be the same, the message is not.

    There are even words now in the testaments that have changed in spelling over time, which changes the numeric assignment, and the message. I cannot trust any system that has built in evolution within itself in such a fashion of ambiguity.

    No ammount of manipulation of numbers, will ever get me to realign my understanding upon which I place my faith in the true and living God.

    Thanks for listening.

    Now, as to your post – God is spirit, and by that simple quality, can indwell without becoming, i.e., God can dwell in the saint without becoming the saint. God cannot become flesh. God created flesh, and cannot become his own creation. That would imply God creates himself. And that I do not believe.

    It was “ho logos” that became flesh and “ho logos” is not God;
    there is no verse in scripture that says “ho logos is ho theos.”
    The reason there is no such verse, is because it is not the case that “ho logos is ho theos.” That is why John said “ho logos was theos.” Becasue John was directed by inspiration of the Holy spirit, to understand that “ho logos” was one thing, and changed to something else, while the thing ho logos was, did not make that same change.

    Now, there are many who get all bent out of shape when someone says God is “ir” or is a “thing.” They need to become more familiar with scripture before they get hostile. Look at how even the translators understood the truth of the matter;

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    As for God being identified as “it,” There are so many places in scripture people read them all the time and don;t even give it a thought, because it is so “vernacular thinking.” We are provided several verses, of which I will provide one or more to give the unknowledgeable a starting place in their research;

    Verses wherein the translators have no problem with referencing God as “it,” “The God,” “This our God.”

    “IT” is my Father, and your God
    John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: [IT] is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

    “IT” is God
    Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.

    Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear
    not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Josh 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he [it is] that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

    Josh 24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

    2 Sam 22:48 It [is] God that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me,

    Psa 18:32 [IT is] God that…

    Psa 18:47 [IT is] God that avengeth me…

    Psa 60:12 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that] shall…

    Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [IT is] he [that]

    Psa 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that]…

    Isa 36:7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is IT] not he…

    Rom 3:30 Seeing [IT is] one God, which shall…..

    Rom 8:33 …..[IT is] God that……

    1 Cor 12:6 … but IT is THE same God WHICH…..

    “THIS” is God
    Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, THIS [is] our God;


    Hi Paladin,

            You say a lot: but NOTHING in response to the point I make?

                                             God Spirit=117

    Rev.21:2-3 And I John saw the HOLY CITY=117, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
    prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,

    the tabernacle of God is with men (Is.60:14), and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
    AND GOD HIMSELF=117 shall be with them, and be “their God”=86 (YHVH=63).
                                                                                    (86=[אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63)

                                 YHVH is GOD=117
    PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
    the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
    117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org   …(Eccl.9:12-16)

    #237353
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,20:42)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55)

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,15:48)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)
    “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.


    Hi Paladin,

                     YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
    I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people. And will be a Father unto you, and ye
    shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2Cor.6:16,18)

    “Theos” (according to Paladin) will NOT become flesh?

    יד(14).  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱ־לֹהִים אֶל מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם:
    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),” and
    He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'

    Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
    יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

    For more on Theomatics…   (Click Here)
    .


    Hello Ed;

    you offered

    Quote

      YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    I offer Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
    egw = singular personal prononun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    theos = singular noun = “GOD”

    And I offer Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
    egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    wn  = present active singular participle = “BEING”
    [A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]

    I have read a few of your numerology posts, and may I offer an observation? It will explain in part why I do not rely on tht system for my understanding of scriptural teaching.

    When Moses wrote the pentateuch, many of the alphabets of modern times did not exist. To understand a number value assigned to a certain letter, requires some semblance of stability. i.e., the numbers won't change over time and be assigned to other letters.

    That did not happen with the Greek, nor the Hebrew, nor the Englsih alphabets. Look at the Greek alphabet for one example, which used to have two letters it does not now include. Where did their numbers go? They were reasigned to other letters. Did the letters change in value? Well, that is the issue isn't it?

    Did the message of the letters in combination change? That is another issue not resolved.

    Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
    “to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers  may be the same, the message is not.

    There are even words now in the testaments that have changed in spelling over time, which changes the numeric assignment, and the message. I cannot trust any system that has built in evolution within itself in such a fashion of ambiguity.

    No ammount of manipulation of numbers, will ever get me to realign my understanding upon which I place my faith in the true and living God.

    Thanks for listening.

    Now, as to your post – God is spirit, and by that simple quality, can indwell without becoming, i.e., God can dwell in the saint without becoming the saint. God cannot become flesh. God created flesh, and cannot become his own creation. That would imply God creates himself. And that I do not believe.

    It was “ho logos” that became flesh and “ho logos” is not God;
    there is no verse in scripture that says “ho logos is ho theos.”
    The reason there is no such verse, is because it is not the case that “ho logos is ho theos.” That is why John said “ho logos was theos.” Becasue John was directed by inspiration of the Holy spirit, to understand that “ho logos” was one thing, and changed to something else, while the thing ho logos was, did not make that same change.

    Now, there are many who get all bent out of shape when someone says God is “ir” or is a “thing.” They need to become more familiar with scripture before they get hostile. Look at how even the translators understood the truth of the matter;

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    As for God being identified as “it,” There are so many places in scripture people read them all the time and don;t even give it a thought, because it is so “vernacular thinking.” We are provided several verses, of which I will provide one or more to give the unknowledgeable a starting place in their research;

    Verses wherein the translators have no problem with referencing God as “it,” “The God,” “This our God.”

    “IT” is my Father, and your God
    John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: [IT] is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

    “IT” is God
    Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember
    the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.

    Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Josh 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he [it is] that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

    Josh 24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

    2 Sam 22:48 It [is] God that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me,

    Psa 18:32 [IT is] God that…

    Psa 18:47 [IT is] God that avengeth me…

    Psa 60:12 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that] shall…

    Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [IT is] he [that]

    Psa 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that]…

    Isa 36:7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is IT] not he…

    Rom 3:30 Seeing [IT is] one God, which shall…..

    Rom 8:33 …..[IT is] God that……

    1 Cor 12:6 … but IT is THE same God WHICH…..

    “THIS” is God
    Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, THIS [is] our God;


    Hi Paladin,

            You say a lot: but NOTHING in response to the point I make?

                                             God Spirit=117

    Rev.21:2-3 And I John saw the HOLY CITY=117, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
    prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,

    the tabernacle of God is with men (Is.60:14), and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
    AND GOD HIMSELF=117 shall be with them, and be “their God”=86 (YHVH=63).
                                                                                    (86=[אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63)

                                 YHVH is GOD=117
    PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
    the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
    117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org   …(Eccl.9:12-16)


    What do you think this was all about?

    Hello Ed;

    you offered

    Quote

    YHVH(63) = will be(63)

    I offer Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
    egw = singular personal prononun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho = singular definite article = “THE”
    theos = singular noun = “GOD”

    And I offer Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
    egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho = singular definite article = “THE”
    wn = present active singular participle = “BEING”
    [A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]

    I have read a few of your numerology posts, and may I offer an observation? It will explain in part why I do not rely on tht system for my understanding of scriptural teaching.

    When Moses wrote the pentateuch, many of the alphabets of modern times did not exist. To understand a number value assigned to a certain letter, requires some semblance of stability. i.e., the numbers won't change over time and be assigned to other letters.

    That did not happen with the Greek, nor the Hebrew, nor the Englsih alphabets. Look at the Greek alphabet for one example, which used to have two letters it does not now include. Where did their numbers go? They were reasigned to other letters. Did the letters change in value? Well, that is the issue isn't it?

    Did the message of the letters in combination change? That is another issue not resolved.

    Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
    “to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers may be the same, the message is not.

    There are even words now in the testaments that have changed in spelling over time, which changes the numeric assignment, and the message. I cannot trust any system that has built in evolution within itself in such a fashion of ambiguity.

    No ammount of manipulation of numbers, will ever get me to realign my understanding upon which I place my faith in the true and living God.

    Thanks for listening.[/quote]

    #237385
     GeneBalthrop 
    Participant
    • Topics started 41
    • Total replies 15,640

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:57)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Feb. 25 2011,14:56)
    Paladin……….Very good points brother. I also believe Jesus did not preexist his berth on earth except in the Plan and foreknowledge of GOD. I also believe Jesus was the first from among Mankind to be in the New creation of God. He will alway hold the title of the First (BORN) into the Kingdom of GOD. He is also First from man kind to inherit eternal life. He is said to be First OF (MANY) BRETHREN.

    peace and love…………………………………………………..gene


    and Grace and Hope to you


    Paladin……….And to you also brother, i do agree with much of what you have come to see . Jesus was indeed predestined from the foundations of the earth, but did not come into existence until he was born in the flesh by Mary.

    peace and love to you and yours……………………gene

    #237408
     Baker 
    Member
    • Topics started 2
    • Total replies 2,348

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)

    Quote (Baker @ Feb. 25 2011,07:10)
    Paladin!  Hello, how about all these Scriptures

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

      Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

    Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

    Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  
    Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  
    Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  
    Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jhn 6:46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.  

    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He din't exist before the World was.  Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

    Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father…  Sitting on the Throne next to Him.  Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Peace and love Irene


    (Irene)

    Quote
    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Fair question. I do not wonder that Jesus is the image of God, for he is a man, and all men are the image fo God.  “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:”

    Quote
    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    See that little limiting parameter there in the verse, Irene?  
    “Whether…” tells us the scope and depth of “all things” of which it is said he is the creator; ” For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers…”

    So Christ created all things, “whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers…”

    This is a reference to the downward adjustment all thrones, dominions, principalities and powers had to make when he was raised to the right hand of God, to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom of God. They had to shift down one position.

    Quote
    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Right! Resurrected christ is first, then when the resurrection of all takes place, he will at that point “have been first.”

    Quote
    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

    Right! The creation of God began with heaven and earth and all that therein is; then proceeded to resurrected “new” beings, never before seen in creation. And Jesus was first of those firstborn from the dead, and as first, until the general resurrection, he will be the “only begotten” from the dead.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    “In the beginning was ho logos, and ho logos was with ton theon, and ho logos was theos.”

    “ho logos” and “theos” are not interchangable terms, because
    “theos” is unarticulated. When “ho logos” became flesh,
    “theos” did not. If you assume “ho logos” and “theos” to be interchangeable, you then have all of God being all of what
    “ho logos” is, because “theos” would have to be “ho theos,” with the article like “ho logos” and you will  have Sabellianism.

    As A. T. Robertson says on page 768, The absence of the article here is on purpose and essential to the true idea.”

    Another misapplied option, is to do what the JW's do with this verse, i.e., translate “the logos was a God.” It is not supported by the Greek, for the Greek has no indefinite article, and the English does not require it for comprehension.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

    Jesus said to his disciples “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall com
    e, ye may remember that I told you of them. “And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” [John 16:4]

    Jesus was with the disciples in the beginning of his ministry, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the beginning of creation. Jesus and John are speaking of the same beginning. And since John tells us later (69 a.d.) in the Revelation, that Jesus will be given a new name, and that name will be “the Logos of God,” then “the logos of God” could not have been Jesus' name at the beginning of his ministry, nor at the creation beginning.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Look to II Cor 5:17 for a clue as to the language John uses in John 1:3, and how the words are used in both passages;

    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen [become] new.” [II COr 5:17]

    “All things became egeneto [were made] by him; and without him not any thing egeneto [became] that gegonen [has become].” [John 1:3]

    For just a touch more enlightenment as to how this word is used in scripture, look for a moment at Luke 23:12 “And the same day Pilate and Herod egenonto [were made] friends together…” All these wordforms are derived from the Greek
    “ginomai” which references a change that takes place, as in a new creation, rather than the original creation.

    Quote

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    When “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.

    Quote
    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  
    Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  
    Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Right! If John tells us “ho logos tou theou” – a new name, it could not have been a prior known name, which is supported by the Greek use of “kainon” which means “new,not previously known, not previously used.”

    And John is not telling us “ho logos” is a name of God, but that it is a name of something that belongs to God; i.e, “ho logos.”

    Quote

    Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  
    Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jesus was telling the Jews “before Abraham became (ginomai) I was.” He is referencing the Messianic prophecies. Jesus, in prophecy, preceded Abraham.

    That Greek “eimi” can be properly understood to mean “was” is supported by at least two verses in which “eimi” is translated
    “was,” the 1st is found in Luke 19:22 “And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I [eimi] was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:” [Eimi is present active 1st person singular in this reference – but it is translated to accomodate “knewest” which  is pluperfect active]  [The pluperfect is used to describe an action that was completed and whose effects are felt at a time after the completion but prior to the time of the speaker's present.]

    And the 2nd is found in II Chron 33:13 – “And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he eimi was God.”
    [eimi is present active 3rd person singular][translated “was” to accomodate aorist active “known” [egnw].

    Quote
    Jhn 6:46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    Both John 6:46 and 8:47 reference “He that is of God” –
    John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save [o` w'n] (he which) is  tou theou [of God], he hath seen the Father.

    John 8:47 [ho wn] (He that is) of [tou theou] (God) heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    The person is “of God” that listens to God's words, and does them. Too many Church teachers know only of Jesus as being “of God” but that is not scriptural.
     

    Quote
    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He dind't exist before the World was.

    The same way Abraham “rejoiced to see my day” and was glad. Abraham paid attention to God's promises, and accepted them as truth.  And it was not “before he came to earth” as you suggest. Nothing of the sort is referenced in the referenced verse.

    Quote

    Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

    Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    It is the glory God promised in scripture, “He shall be extolled and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]

    Just as we were promised eternal life before the world began -“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” [Titus 1:2]

    Quote
    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father…  Sitting on the Throne next to Him.  Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Do you really think the sea is going to hold spirits, and the earth is going to hols spirits until resurrection? No my friend, they will hold corrupted bodies until the spirit is reunited with them, to become once more eternally living souls. And that is God's “new heaven and new earth, created by Jesus Christ.

    Quote
    Pe
    ace and love Irene

    And grace and hope.


    Paladin! yes, He is not only the image of God, but also in the form of God
    Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Col.1:16 does not say it is a adjustment you are adding that.
    Col. 1:17 is not the resurrection that is verse 18

    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

    Jesus was both firstborn of all creation, and firstborn of the death. So HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE. You are smart, I think you know what preeminence means. But just in case you don't, it means above before others.

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    Again, you are adding. IT says that He is thE BEGINNING OF GODS CREATION. NOT THE BEGINNING OF THE RESURRECTION.

    Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    So you are denying that this is Jesus The Word of God, who will come again to earth and set all straight? Who else is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS in the Bible.

    You are assuming a lot my friend and denying some good Scriptures.
    all the other Scriptures you quote I agree with, but that does not take away what all other Scriptures teach.

    Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    again, you make very conveniently something else out of what it really says.

    Jesus also said that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father who send him.

    Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    He is the Breath of life

    Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

    Jhn 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

    i believe Jesus, I know that He came from Heaven to do Gods will. I believe Jesus and not man….
    Peace Irene

    #237429
     Paladin 
    Member
    • Topics started 17
    • Total replies 1,215

    Quote (Baker @ Feb. 26 2011,04:42)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)

    Quote (Baker @ Feb. 25 2011,07:10)
    Paladin!  Hello, how about all these Scriptures

    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:  

    Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

      Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:  

    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:  

    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  

    Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

    Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.  

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.  

    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  
    Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  
    Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  
    Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jhn 6:46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.  

    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He din't exist before the World was.  Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

    Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father…  Sitting on the Throne next to Him.  Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Peace and love Irene


    (Irene)

    Quote
    Col 1:13   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: Col 1:14   In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:  Col 1:15   Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    Fair question. I do not wonder that Jesus is the image of God, for he is a man, and all men are the image of God.  “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:”

    Quote
    Col 1:16   For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    See that little limiting parameter there in the verse, Irene?  
    “Whether…” tells us the scope and depth of “all things” of which it is said he is the creator; ” For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers…”

    So Christ created all things, “whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers…”

    This is a reference to the downward adjustment all thrones, dominions, principalities and powers had to make when he was raised to the right hand of God, to accomodate his new position as second in the kingdom of God. They had to shift down one position.

    Quote
    Col 1:17   And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    Right! Resurrected christ is first, then when the resurrection of all takes place, he will at that point “have been first.”

    Quote
    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;  

    Right! The creation of God began with heaven and earth and all that therein is; then proceeded to resurrected “new” beings, never before seen in creation. And Jesus was first of those firstborn from the dead, and as first, until the general resurrection, he will be the “only begotten” from the dead.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    “In the beginning was ho logos, and ho logos was with ton theon, and ho logos was theos.”

    “ho logos” and “theos” are not interchangable terms, because
    “theos” is unarticulated. When “ho logos” became flesh,
    “theos” did not. If you assume “ho logos” and “theos” to be interchangeable, you then have all of God being all of what
    “ho logos” is, because “theos” would have to be “ho theos,” with the article like “ho logos” and you will  have Sabellianism.

    As A. T. Robertson says on page 768, The absence of the article here is on purpose and essential to the true idea.”

    Another misapplied option, is to do what the JW's do with this verse, i.e., translate “the logos was a God.” It is not supported by the Greek, for the Greek has no indefinite article, and the English does not require it for comprehension.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:2   The same was in the beginning with God.  

    Jesus said to his disciples “But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. “And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.” [John 16:4]

    Jesus was with the disciples in the beginning of his ministry, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the beginning of creation. Jesus and John are speaking of the same beginning. And since John tells us later (69 a.d.) in the Revelation, that Jesus will be given a new name, and that name will be “the Logos of God,” then “the logos of God” could not have been Jesus' name at the beginning of his ministry, nor at the creation beginning.

    Quote
    Jhn 1:3   All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Look to II Cor 5:17 for a clue as to the language John uses in John 1:3, and how the words are used in both passages;

    “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are gegonen [become] new.” [II COr 5:17]

    “All things became egeneto [were made] by him; and without him not any thing egeneto [became] that gegonen [has become].” [John 1:3]

    For just a touch more enlightenment as to how this word is used in scripture, look for a moment at Luke 23:12 “And the same day Pilate and Herod egenonto [were made] friends together…” All these wordforms are derived from the Greek
    “ginomai” which references a change that takes place, as in a new creation, rather than the original creation.

    Quote

    Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    When “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.

    Quote
    In order to explain what The Word of God is this Scripture tells us.

    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  
    Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  
    Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  
    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    Right! If John tells us “ho logos tou theou” – a new name, it could not have been a prior known name, which is supported by the Greek use of “kainon” which means “new,not previously known, not previously used.”

    And John is not telling us “ho logos” is a name of God, but that it is a name of something that belongs to God; i.e, “ho logos.”

    Quote

    Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  
    Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Jesus was telling the Jews “before Abraham became (ginomai) I was.” He is referencing the Messianic prophecies. Jesus, in prophecy, preceded Abraham.

    That Greek “eimi” can be properly understood to mean “was” is supported by at least two verses in which “eimi” is translated
    “was,” the 1st is found in Luke 19:22 “And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I [eimi] was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:” [Eimi is present active 1st person singular in this reference – but it is translated to accomodate “knewest” which  is pluperfect active]  [The pluperfect is used to describe an action that was completed and whose effects are felt at a time after the completion but prior to the time of the speaker's present.]

    And the 2nd is found in II Chron 33:13 – “And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he eimi was God.”
    [eimi is present active 3rd person singular][translated “was” to accomodate aorist active “known” [egnw].

    Quote
    Jhn 6:46   Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    Both John 6:46 and 8:47 reference “He that is of God” –
    John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save [o` w'n] (he which) is  tou theou [of God], he hath seen the Father.

    John 8:47 [ho wn] (He that is) of [tou theou] (God) heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    The person is “of God” that listens to God's words, and does them. Too many Church teachers know only of Jesus as being “of God” but that is not scriptural.
     

    Quote
    This last Scripture I have to ask you, how did Jesus see his father before He came to earth, if He dind't exist before the World was.

    The same way Abraham “rejoiced to see my day” and was glad. Abraham paid attention to God's promises, and accepted them as truth.  And it was not “before he came to earth” as you suggest. Nothing of the sort is referenced in the referenced verse.

    Quote

    Also in this next scripture what glory did Jesus have?

    Jhn 17:4   I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.  

    Jhn 17:5   And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    It is the glory God promised in scripture, “He shall be extolled and be very high.” [Isa 52:13]

    Just as we were promised eternal life before the world began -“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;” [Titus 1:2]

    Quote
    Is Jesus not now in Heaven with His Father…  Sitting on the Throne next to Him.  Only a Spirit being can……And Jesus is, and Jesus was……

    Do you really think the sea is going to hold spirits, and the earth is going to hols spirits until resurrection? No my friend, they will hold corrupted bodies until the spirit is reunited with them, to become once more eternally living souls. And that is God's “new hea
    ven and new earth, created by Jesus Christ.

    Quote
    Peace and love Irene

    And grace and hope.


    Paladin!  yes, He is not only the image of God, but also in the form of God
    Phl 2:6   Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:  
    Phl 2:7   But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
     
    Col.1:16 does not say it is a adjustment you are adding that.
    Col. 1:17 is not the resurrection that is verse 18

    Col 1:18   And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.  

    Jesus was both firstborn of all creation, and firstborn of the death.  So HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE.  You are smart, I think you know what preeminence means.  But just in case you don't, it means above before others.

    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    Again, you are adding.  IT says that He is thE BEGINNING OF GODS CREATION. NOT THE BEGINNING OF THE RESURRECTION.  

    Rev 19:13   And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  

    Rev 19:14   And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  

    Rev 19:15   And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  

    Rev 19:16   And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.  

    So you are denying that this is Jesus The Word of God, who will come again to earth and set all straight?  Who else is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS in the Bible.

    You are assuming a lot my friend and denying some good Scriptures.  
    all the other Scriptures you quote I agree with, but that does not take away what all other Scriptures teach.  

    Jhn 8:57   Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?  

    Jhn 8:58   Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.  
    again, you make very conveniently something else out of what it really says.

    Jesus also said that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father who send him.  

    Jhn 6:38   For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.  
    He is the Breath of life

    Jhn 6:32   Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.  

    Jhn 6:35   And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.  

    i believe Jesus, I know that He came from Heaven to do Gods will. I believe Jesus and not man….
    Peace Irene


    Quote
    Paladin! yes, He is not only the image of God, but also in the form of God
    Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    1st) “form” is not articulated, so paul is saying Jesus was in form of God. eliminate “the” and it references “form God” in a very different way. All christians are in form God, as God lives in us and influences the changes in our lives.

    Quote
    Col.1:16 does not say it is a adjustment you are adding that.

    I thought you knew, when I put “_”'s at each end of the sentence, that is all that is included in the quote. All else is commentary. Kinda similar to what I see in your posts. Only I understand it.

    I am explaining it because the translation is limited to general knowledge of several centuries ago.

    Quote
    Col. 1:17 is not the resurrection that is verse 18

    So, if you believe in two resurrections, I suppose you could say that. “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” [Col 1:17]

    Paul is writing about events that are recent past, not ancient history. When Paul, writing in 60 a.d. says something about Jesus “is” rather than “was,” he is not writing about prehistoric events, but rather is writing about things accomplished, but of which Paul still feels the effect.

    “He is before all things” is not a reference to “He was before all creation…” Rather it is a reference to “He is now” either chief, or first in priority, or first in chronological order. As he is first in chronological order raised from the dead, and as older brother “firstborn among many brethren” is first in priority, it necessarily make “He is before all things” reference the fact all creation will follow his resurrection in their own resurrection.

    Quote
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

    Jesus was both firstborn of all creation, and firstborn of the death. So HE MAY HAVE PREEMINENCE. You are smart, I think you know what preeminence means. But just in case you don't, it means above before others.

    “That in all things he might have the preeminence” explains the significance of “who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead.” It is talking about the beginning of the new creation, not the beginning of original creation.

    Quote
    Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

    Again, you are adding. IT says that He is thE BEGINNING OF GODS CREATION. NOT THE BEGINNING OF THE RESURRECTION.

    That's an assumption on your part. I have already told you, my friend, that there are more than one creation. I perhaps did not elaborate enough, but space become important in a long post.

    There was original creation, accomplished by God working with wisdom; there was the new creation of which Jesus was involved; there is the creation of a new type of being, resurrected persons. Some even consider the church to be the 3rd creation, where there is neither male nor female, neither Jew, not Gentile, but all are one in Christ Jesus. I would not argue with that, nor would I make it a test of fellowship.

    Quote
    Rev 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    Rev 19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    So you are denying that this is Jesus The Word of God, who will come again to earth and set all straight? Who else is called KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS in the Bible.

    I know it is difficult to assimilate all that scripture says about the subject, but it becomes necessary when the whole church has been mislead for centuries, and to this day, reads the scripture backwards, to learn what words say and mean. John's gospel is not the first book written, so why would I look to John to tell me what “logos” means? John's gospel is the lsat book written, and he never corrected what Paul had written about “the logos of God” over sixty years before.

    Jesus is not the logos of God. “The logos of God” is not a person, it is a concept whereby “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me
    : and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” [Gal 2:20]

    “My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,” [Gal 4:19]

    “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you,” [II Cor 13:5]

    ” If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the logos [word] of God;
    26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: ” [Col 1:23-27]

    Paul taught us that “The logos of God” is the idea or concept of me living aa lifestyle in which Christ can be formed in me, so that I no longer live, but at some point, Christ lives my life for me, because I lost my life in submission to God. It is a great concept, a Holy concept, and a wonderful thing to behold when a new saint submits to Christ, allows Christ to live his life for him, so that it is no longer the saint, but Christ living in the saint, and the logos of God is personified, becomes flesh once again, and will continue to do so as long as men will submit to the concpet of “The logos of god” becoming flesh in their lives.

    Quote
    You are assuming a lot my friend and denying some good Scriptures.

    Well my friend, (I hope that still appeals to you) if you will read the scriptures in the order in which they were written, and learn how words give their meaning, in the order in which they were taught, you will find a far different “Logos of God” than you will by reaidng John's gospel for the meaning of
    “logos.”

    Quote
    all the other Scriptures you quote I agree with, but that does not take away what all other Scriptures teach.

    Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

    Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    again, you make very conveniently something else out of what it really says.

    Not when you take into consideration the use of eimi to read
    “was” instead of “is.”

    Quote
    Jesus also said that He came from Heaven to do the will of His Father who send him.

    Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    That was an appeal to authority. “John's baptism whence cometh it? From heaven or of men?” What John taught with his baptism came from heaven, and what Jesus taught came from heaven. And what Jesus was came from heaven, all other men came from God's instruction to Adam and Eve to increase and multiply and replenish the earth.

    Quote
    i believe Jesus, I know that He came from Heaven to do Gods will. I believe Jesus and not man….

    But you believe men for everything you think you know. It was men who began reading John's gospel before Paul's teaching, and it was men who moved the ancient manuscripts to line up with how the books are listed and published in bibles today, and that is founded in doctrine not inspiration.

    Look, my friend, and the only sign God gave to the whole world, that nobody acknowledged, and only now is the Holy Spirit bringing attention to it to show his approval –

    In 451 a.d. at teh council of Chalcedon, the trinity doctrine was declared for the final time “orthodox doctrine.” Then in 452 a.d., the pope turned the church over to the Emperor Marcian for punishment for heresy, and that punishment was death through torture, contrary to Jesus' own words – “These things have I spoken unto you that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.” [John 16:1-3]

    God gave his sign of disapproval, by instigating a 1000 year judgment on the earth, the “dark ages” which lasted till 1452 when the first bible came off the printing press for the first time, and truth no longer resided exclusively in the hands of “orthodox position” but was taken from the hands of clergy and given to the hands of common men.

    Peace Irene

    And grace and Hope to you.

    #237430
     Ed J 
    Participant
    • Topics started 155
    • Total replies 27,583

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,21:09)

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,20:42)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,19:55)

    Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 25 2011,15:48)

    Quote (Paladin @ Feb. 25 2011,10:51)
    “ho logos” became flesh, “theos” did not.


    Hi Paladin,

                     YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said,
    I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God,
    and they shall be my people. And will be a Father unto you, and ye
    shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. (2Cor.6:16,18)

    “Theos” (according to Paladin) will NOT become flesh?

    יד(14).  וַיֹּאמֶר אֱ־לֹהִים אֶל מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם:
    Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, “Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be),” and
    He said, “So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'

    Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
    יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)

    For more on Theomatics…   (Click Here)
    .


    Hello Ed;

    you offered

    Quote

      YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    I offer Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
    egw = singular personal prononun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    theos = singular noun = “GOD”

    And I offer Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
    egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    wn  = present active singular participle = “BEING”
    [A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]

    I have read a few of your numerology posts, and may I offer an observation? It will explain in part why I do not rely on tht system for my understanding of scriptural teaching.

    When Moses wrote the pentateuch, many of the alphabets of modern times did not exist. To understand a number value assigned to a certain letter, requires some semblance of stability. i.e., the numbers won't change over time and be assigned to other letters.

    That did not happen with the Greek, nor the Hebrew, nor the Englsih alphabets. Look at the Greek alphabet for one example, which used to have two letters it does not now include. Where did their numbers go? They were reasigned to other letters. Did the letters change in value? Well, that is the issue isn't it?

    Did the message of the letters in combination change? That is another issue not resolved.

    Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
    “to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers  may be the same, the message is not.

    There are even words now in the testaments that have changed in spelling over time, which changes the numeric assignment, and the message. I cannot trust any system that has built in evolution within itself in such a fashion of ambiguity.

    No ammount of manipulation of numbers, will ever get me to realign my understanding upon which I place my faith in the true and living God.

    Thanks for listening.

    Now, as to your post – God is spirit, and by that simple quality, can indwell without becoming, i.e., God can dwell in the saint without becoming the saint. God cannot become flesh. God created flesh, and cannot become his own creation. That would imply God creates himself. And that I do not believe.

    It was “ho logos” that became flesh and “ho logos” is not God;
    there is no verse in scripture that says “ho logos is ho theos.”
    The reason there is no such verse, is because it is not the case that “ho logos is ho theos.” That is why John said “ho logos was theos.” Becasue John was directed by inspiration of the Holy spirit, to understand that “ho logos” was one thing, and changed to something else, while the thing ho logos was, did not make that same change.

    Now, there are many who get all bent out of shape when someone says God is “ir” or is a “thing.” They need to become more familiar with scripture before they get hostile. Look at how even the translators understood the truth of the matter;

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    As for God being identified as “it,” There are so many places in scripture people read them all the time and don;t even give it a thought, because it is so “vernacular thinking.” We are provided several verses, of which I will provide one or more to give the unknowledgeable a starting place in their research;

    Verses wherein the translators have no problem with referencing God as “it,” “The God,” “This our God.”

    “IT” is my Father, and your God
    John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: [IT] is
    my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

    “IT” is God
    Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.

    Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for [it is] he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as [it is] this day.

    Deu 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he [it is] that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

    Josh 23:10 One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he [it is] that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you.

    Josh 24:17 For the LORD our God, he [it is] that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

    2 Sam 22:48 It [is] God that avengeth me, and that bringeth down the people under me,

    Psa 18:32 [IT is] God that…

    Psa 18:47 [IT is] God that avengeth me…

    Psa 60:12 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that] shall…

    Psa 100:3 Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [IT is] he [that]

    Psa 108:13 Through God we shall do valiantly: for he [IT is that]…

    Isa 36:7 But if thou say to me, We trust in the LORD our God: [is IT] not he…

    Rom 3:30 Seeing [IT is] one God, which shall…..

    Rom 8:33 …..[IT is] God that……

    1 Cor 12:6 … but IT is THE same God WHICH…..

    “THIS” is God
    Isa 25:9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, THIS [is] our God;


    Hi Paladin,

            You say a lot: but NOTHING in response to the point I make?

                                             God Spirit=117

    Rev.21:2-3 And I John saw the HOLY CITY=117, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven,
    prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold,

    the tabernacle of God is with men (Is.60:14), and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people,
    AND GOD HIMSELF=117 shall be with them, and be “their God”=86 (YHVH=63).
                                                                                    (86=[אלהים] ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63)

                                 YHVH is GOD=117
    PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter],
    the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
    117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org   …(Eccl.9:12-16)


    What do you think this was all about?

    Hello Ed;

    you offered

    Quote
     

     YHVH(63) =  will be(63)

    I offer Gen 17:1- God introduced himself to Abraham –
    egw = singular personal prononun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    theos = singular noun = “GOD”

    And I offer Exo 3:14- God introduced himself to Moses –
    egw = singular personal pronoun “I”
    eimi = present active 1st person singular verb “To Be” = “AM”
    ho   = singular definite article = “THE”
    wn  = present active singular participle = “BEING”
    [A participle is a “-ing” word; in this case the verb “TO BE;” which translates “The Being”]

    I have read a few of your numerology posts, and may I offer an observation? It will explain in part why I do not rely on tht system for my understanding of scriptural teaching.

    When Moses wrote the pentateuch, many of the alphabets of modern times did not exist. To understand a number value assigned to a certain letter, requires some semblance of stability. i.e., the numbers won't change over time and be assigned to other letters.

    That did not happen with the Greek, nor the Hebrew, nor the Englsih alphabets. Look at the Greek alphabet for one example, which used to have two letters it does not now include. Where did their numbers go? They were reasigned to other letters. Did the letters change in value? Well, that is the issue isn't it?

    Did the message of the letters in combination change? That is another issue not resolved.

    Another issue not addressed, is, do the spaces between letters have a value? What is that value. Look at the phrase
    “to get her” as in “We went into the other room to get her.” Compare the numbers with “We went into the other room together.” Even though the numbers  may be the same, the message is not.

    There are even words now in the testaments that have changed in spelling over time, which changes the numeric assignment, and the message. I cannot trust any system that has built in evolution within itself in such a fashion of ambiguity.

    No ammount of manipulation of numbers, will ever get me to realign my understanding upon which I place my faith in the true and living God.

    Thanks for listening.


    Hi Hi Paladin,

    What YHVH will be is in his people,
    God is going to tabernacle in his people.
    This is the point that seems to escape you!
    You repeating your post ADDS NOTHING here!

                            God's Signature
                 The Bible(63) → AKJV Bible(74)

    יהוה=26 (God's Name: YHVH pronounced YÄ-hä-vā)
    YHVH=63 (God's Name יהוה translated into English)
    Jesus=74 (God's Son's name in English is: “Joshua”)
    HolySpirit=151 (“FATHER: The Word”: in all believers)
    God The Father=117 (Representing “GOD”: יהוה האלהים)

    ………………The “Divine”=63 “Deity”=63 of “The Bible”=63 is “YHVH”=63 !
    ………………God's Name [יהוה] translates DIRECTLY into English as “YHVH”=63
    Hosea 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth
    ………………is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as
    ………………[The Latter Rain“=151 and former rain“=117] unto the earth.

    ……..The Three Major Feasts (of Seven
    total) have much significance

    I addedCOLOR”=63 to help you grasp the “Ideas” God has put forth in His Word!
    THE “THREE” MAIN “FEASTS OF GOD” (out of seven total feasts) are as follows…

    …….74 x 2 =148
    1) The Passover”=148…………….“The Passover”: made possible “Pentecost”=117
    “Messiah: Jesus”=148…………….JESUS CHRIST”=151 was/is “the Testator”=151!

    2) Pentecost”=117…………………Started  the “God Spirit”=117(Holy Spirit), which      
    Former Rain=117……………….is “GOD THE FATHER”=117 reigning in believers!

    3) Feast of Booths”=151…………begins The “HOLY SPIRIT”=151(The LORD JEHOVAH=151)
    Tabernacles Feast=151 …………“Tabernacles Feast”=151; is the culmination of all “three”!
    The Latter Rain=151……………“HolySpirit” ruling: is “PROOF OF GOD”=117! (Rev.11:15)

    Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH! (Psalm 45:17)
    117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
    Ed J (AKJV Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14 / Joshua 22:34)
    http://www.holycitybiblecode.org   …(Eccl.9:12-16)

Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 3,212 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account