Enoch

This topic contains 257 replies, has 45 voices, and was last updated by  t8 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #4221
     ringo111 
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    Wish you'd come back mohummad>

    Quote
    Engulfing the ####### trinity

    Many of us who call ourselves christions believe the trinity is a lie. Men, having err'd from the origional belief. For the disciples of Jesus Called him a prophet of GOD, and not GoD himself.

    #4222
     Anonymous
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    Some who call themselves Christians aren't really Christians at all.  In fact, some are devils posing as Christians trying to spread their evil and undermine the name of the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

    #4223
     Anonymous
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    hey james,

    what you say is true… but who will cast the first stone?

    surely no man knows the whole truth?

    cheers,

    nate.

    #4224
     Anonymous
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    Enoch new the whole truth, because GOD wanted him to know it. He is/was a man.

    I don't know who will cast the 1st stone but I will consciously question all information available to me.

    #4225
     Anonymous
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    hey james,

    i agree that we should consciously question all things, but that means withholding judgement – firstly because there is only one fit judge, and secondly because whatever measure we use to judge, will be used in judgement against us (by the almighty).

    as to enoch – i don't know whether it could be established that he knew the whole truth… certainly we are told that he walked with god, and god took him… we have references of his seeing things which no man has seen in the book of enoch, but as far as i can tell its authorship is still highly debateable…

    further to this, paul also says that he was taken into heaven and saw/heard things unmentionable – but even paul doesn't claim to know the whole truth, not to be without sin – in fact he is very honest about his fallibility…

    for we see only in part, but one day we will see the truth face to face…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #4226
     Anonymous
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    I have a question

    how come certain satan or occult sects say that they should use the book of enoch?

    I haven't read it myself yet
    is it true it speak of God's Mistakes?

    thank you
    chris

    #4227
     NickHassan 
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    I enjoyed the Book of Enoch as it clarifies so much about the roles of angels and fills in so many gaps about the supernatural heaven ,hell etc.

    God does not make mistakes as He knows the future.

    I also recently read the Apocryphal Book of 2 Esdras-available in any catholic bible-and anyone interested in endtimes should read it as it is very illuminating. It also speaks of 10 time periods as does Enoch.

    #4228
     Anonymous
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    hey guys,

    i don't quite understand how the book of enoch could have been written before the flood, saved by noah, taken with abraham out of ur, taken with the children of israel out of egypt, saved throughout all the years of the diaspora, and yet never spoken of by anyone in the bible except jude…

    i have to say, i'm rather dubious… i've asked a jew about this, and he said that he doesn't know anything about the book of enoch… you'd think that if it was so important as to be saved throughout all the years since the flood that there would be traditions about it…

    perhaps someone has a good explanation?

    cheers,

    nate.

    #4229
     t8 
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    A lot more could be said in this post, but James also quotes from the book. Quotations were also known from the Church Fathers.

    In the book it also says:

    Enoch was the grandfather of Noah. The Book of Enoch chapter 68:1 “And after that my grandfather Enoch gave me all the secrets in the book and in the parables which had been given to him, and he put them together for me in the words of the book of the parables.”

    This makes it possible for the Book to have survived the flood as its not too hard to accept that Noah would have taken his Great Grandfathers writings with him onto the ark.

    Also I think 7 copies of this book were discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    The Book is like the bible in the sense that it has a number of different authors. So it is a collection.

    The opening verses of the Book of Enoch tell us that the revelations in this book were not meant for Enoch's generation, rather a remote generation, and of course the book would make more sense to the generations after Christ.

    I am however open to it being a fraud. But it is quite amazing what is written and it seems good too. There is however a debate on it's age, but UA researchers have carbon 14-dated bits of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the results discredit the controversial theory that some of the texts may have been the work of early Christians. So carbon dating (how reliable is that I am not sure) suggests that the scrolls predate christianity, yet it's writing seems christian.
    http://packrat.aml.arizona.edu/deadsea.html

    #4230
     Anonymous
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    hey t8,

    um… where does james quote from it? is it explicit?

    as to carbon dating – this is the very same technique used to pronounce fossils as being hundreds of thousand of years old… in general, conditions dictate the rate of decay in carbon, and it is impossible to know with certainty what those conditions were generations after the event.

    i'm still dubious for several reasons… um… the book of enoch mentions rain, but there is some debate as to whether it ever rained before the flood – gen 2:5-6 says that it didn't rain, but i concede that this may only have been until that particular time… secondly, as i mentioned earlier, it doesn't feature in jewish tradition (as far as i'm able to assertain), which i think wouldn't be the case if it was definitive proof of the flood, etc… i'm also dubious of the concept of pre-flood literature, just because there is no evidence of such as thing…

    i must say that i'm a bit disappointed that it doesn't mention or describe mythical (or even prehistoric) creatures – of course there is a reference to behemoth and leviathan, but job mentions those also… this is another reason why i'm dubious…

    but i'm happy to be proved wrong… in fact, i would be happy to accept the veracity of the book if i could be convinced it was genuine – pre fall and pre flood stuff fascinates me… but the book seems like something anyone with a knowledge of old and new testament literature and language, and historical events could write… so whether this is genuinely what jude was quoting, that would at least solve one dilemma…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #4231
     Anonymous
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    The “sons of God” were the decendents of Adam through Seth. The “daughters of men” were the decendents of Cain. God's children were to be set apart from the world not to intermarry with the children of Cain. They were to be a set apart people that would lead down through the generations. From which the Messiah would be born.
    From Adam to Noah man began to increase in number on the earth, and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the dauhgters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose.

    If the sons of God were angels, which God created only to appear as male, no female angels, why would he have made them with reproductive organs and an ability to reproduce?

    Why would their hormones cause them to be attracted to human women, since they were totally different kinds of beings?

    Why would they marry them? Why not just take them and rape them?

    Why would angel DNA be close enough to produce children with human women?

    The nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were heros of old, MEN of renown.
    The LORD saw how great man's wickedness had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. So the LORD was greived that he had made man on the earth and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said “I will wipe mankind from the face of the earth”;

    If the children of God were angels that forced themselves on human women, why does God punish man and animals with destruction and not the angel's who committed the crime?

    Strong's says Nephilim means (tyrants and bullies). A tyrant is a man like Saddam or Hitler not an angel. Man had become only with evil on his mind due to the intermarriage with the decendents of Cain, God's set apart children had become corrupt. Only Noah walked with God. God decided to destroy all of man except Noah and is family and thereby purge the evil and begin again to set apart a people through whom the Messiah would decend.
    D.

    #4232
     NickHassan 
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    Hi shakai,
    What is the bible evidence for your claims?

    #4233
     Anonymous
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    hey shakai7,

    a couple of points:

    “daughters of man” could also be translated “daughters of adam”, or even “towns of men/adam”… so i think it would be difficult to assert that these were specifically of cain… moreover, the interpretation of “sons of god” is a point of much contention…

    also, “married wives” could be translated “took women”… marriage has not always involved a “ceremony”, merely a “consecration” – if you know what i mean?

    dna is a strange issue to raise if we're talking about angels, because if they are spiritual creatures, more than physical, they could probably take any form they wanted (eg satan appears as an angel of light)… and do anything they wanted (within reason)… seing as god is spirit, and he created the universe – which is physical – the spiritual obviously is primary to the physical, and far more “real”… so the physical realm is kind of like “the matrix”…

    nephilim may be translated in many different ways, including “giants”, but it comes from the root word “naphal” meaning “fallen” or “cast down”, which is kind of telling on it's own, i think…

    anyway, hope you'll consider these points…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #4234
     Anonymous
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    Hello,
    KJ says “took them wives”, NIV says” and they married any of them they chose”. The NJB says” they took women and married as many as they wanted”. Earlier in Genesis when speeking og Adam and Eve it says in KJ “Adam knew his wife”.
    In NIV “lay with his wife”, meaning intercourse not married or took.
    Sons of God. The word “sons” in Hebrew is “ben” which means, “Builder of the family name, including grandson, subject, nation…”. How were angels a builder of the family name?
    Nation in Hebrew is, “goy: a massing (of people).
    Angels are created beings themselves, only God can create. Could angels make physical bodies?
    Angel in Hebrew is “Mal-ak: to dispatch (as a deputy) a messenger of God.” Even prophets were angels. But the text in Gen. 6 says “sons of God saw the daughters of men” not angels of God saw the daughters of men. The male builders of the family of God saw the female builders of the family of men and saw that they were fair, and took them as wives.
    Heb. 1:5 For which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son; today I have become your father.” Or again, “I will be his father and he will be my son”?

    If the offspring from a union between angels and women produces giants, then Jesus, who's father was God must have really been big.

    Gen. says God created Adam in His own image, and Seth in Adam's image. Cain was a murderer like his father satan. Cain was driven out from the presense of God and dwelt in the land of nod. (land of exile), he became a wanderer. There he found a wife and began to build a family with the birth of his first son, Enoch. They would grow to be many.
    In Gen. 4 you can see the decendants of Cain. In Gen. 5 are the decendants of Adam through Seth down to Noah. This continues in Gen.6 where we find the Sons of God taking wives from the daughters of men. From that union God saw that man had become completely wicked. Noah was a just man he walked with God. Man had corrupted his way on earth, God decided to destroy all flesh on earth, except for Noah, decendent of Adam, who was created in God's image, and his family. On the other side of the flood God started to again rebuild His family through Shem which would lead to Abraham to Isaac to Jacob all the way to the Messiah, the son of God. We are his brothers.

    Heb. 2:10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exist, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy, and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. He says, “I will declare your name to my brothers;
    14: Since the children have flesh and blood he to shared in their humanity….
    15: for surely it is not angels he helps, but Abrahams decendents. For this reason he had to be made like his brothers….”
    We are the sons of God through our Messiah.

    #4235
     Anonymous
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    hey shakai7,

    in translating the “daughters of men” i was less concerned with how modern bibles have translated it, than with how the hebrew could be translated… which is also pertinent to my next point…

    you say:

    Quote

    Sons of God. The word “sons” in Hebrew is “ben” which means, “Builder of the family name, including grandson, subject, nation…”. How were angels a builder of the family name?

    certainly “ben” comes from the root “banah” meaning to build, establish or cause to continue… but this is exactly what “sons” do… i think that the “builder of a family name” is a bit of a modern presumption (ie. based on modern thinking) – is that from strong's? …this word (ben) also refers to characterisation – as in “sons of injustice”…

    Quote

    This continues in Gen.6 where we find the Sons of God taking wives from the daughters of men. From that union God saw that man had become completely wicked.

    sure, this could be infered, but it isn't explicitly said… what is said is that man had become wicked. but it also says that in that time and afterwards (that is after the flood) there were nephilim… whereas cain's offspring weren't…

    Quote

    If the offspring from a union between angels and women produces giants, then Jesus, who's father was God must have really been big.

    that's just silly! jesus was not the result of a “union” but was conceived of the holy spirit.

    moreover, “giants” are just one of many possible translations (which i said in my last post) – but the root word “naphal” means fallen or cast down… perhaps like a fallen angel, perhaps like a fallen many, but not definitively one or the other.

    cheers,

    nate.

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