March 21, 2012 at 12:02 pm #286544
Gene and all,
Ok, back to Spirit Bodies(?) – putting aside that some do not agree that Jesus was pre-Existent, do you think that for those who do believe it the idea that he was in a Spiritual Body (that therefore cannot die) cannot be as it would mean that Jesus did not die on the Cross?
In other words: The Spirit in non-dead body is a Living Being: Jesus was therefore a Spirit in a Spiritual Body in a Flesh Body on the Cross. The Flesh part was set ready to decay when the Spirit in a Spiritual Body left it.
Remember, the theory of the Spirit in the Spiritual Body is their ideology not ours?
Is it possible for anyone else to lay out their idea of the subject in a 'Beginning to End' style like I did so we can see 'End to End' how all the parts of each other's beliefs fit together – is any one confident enough in their belief and ideology to do this or is this thread just going to keep spinning on minutiae in each post?March 21, 2012 at 12:05 pm #286545
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 21 2012,08:02) Toby……….It is my opinion they (Angles simply did not exist, God made them Bodies and added SPIRIT (intellects) in those “bodies” but that does not make “THEM” (just Spirits) no more then were Just Spirit. I believe, they like us are a mixture of a Body with Spirits (IN) them basically the same as we are only their bodies can not die. So that Makes the Angels simple a “LITTLE” above us and we a LITTLE Below them, and that matches scripture also. I really think we may be a higher level beings then angels because of our present sufferings, we are in my opinion God Crown Jewel of all creation. He sure goes through a lot with us and that has to be for some reason. IMO
I am still looking into original Greek Sources so i am still open for you inputs and Mikes if he has the Hits-bula to come to the table.
peace and lvoe to you and yours Toby…………………………………………..gene
I'm not following your logic flow here:
You said ''Angles (sic) did not exist” but “God made bodies for them”.
Gene, this is not logical.
If 'they' did not exist how are bodies made for them?
Where in Scriptures does it say that 'God made bodies for Angels'?
Gene, come on!! Look again at the verse…
“God makes his Angels Spirits and his ministers, a Flame of Fire”
There are two parts to the verse:
The first part says that 'Spirits' are the Messengers (Angels) of God
The second says that 'Flames of Fire' are the Ministers of God
What you say has God putting Spirits into Angels that don't exist in part one and making his Ministers a flame of fire (happily, you don't dispute this)
Gene, the two do not flow together.
Convince yourself of the truth of this.
'Angels' are only Spirits. Spirits that are Messengers of God.
Read that again:
Spirits that deliver messages from God are called 'Angels'.
This is to distinguish them from Spirits that are 'not' Messengers but remain in Heaven doing service to God only.
If they have bodies then the same unanswerable question still remains:
– What are the bodies of Spirits made of?
– where is the proof of this in Scriptures?
– Jesus, as a Spirit in Heaven, would have therefore also had a body. What happened to it when he came as man (See my previous post)March 21, 2012 at 2:23 pm #286566GeneBalthropParticipant
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Toby……….Sorry for the confusion ,what i meant was Angels did not exist (UNTIL) God made a Body and then Put the type of Spirit he wanted to (IN) those Bodies , exactly like us after we are resurected. We will still have Bodies and Spirit in them so we will again after death be a living Soul again. Remember Scripture say To each God give it a BODY of it's OWN. Spirits on the other hand do not have bodies they are what is (IN) Bodies. All Spirit (IN) Bodies are given By GOD and He can extract those Spirits are add to them. The only one who exists without a Body is GOD The Father himself, and he lives vicariously in and through the bodies he created, and He is the maker of those Bodies and Spirits also.
Toby there are two parts of that verse and both agree Heb . The Greek Reads it this way.
Heb 1:7…..> And to indeed the messengers he says, the one makings the messengers of him spirits and the servants of him of fire flames.
Another thing Toby you say “Angels are (ONLY) Spirits, then why have two separate words them? to me Angels are “BEINGS” that have Spirits (IN) them. And those Spirit can be clean or unclean . Now if you can follow me here. A spirit is a Spirit it is not a “BEING” it is and (IT) and IT (spirits )comes in all KINDS and TYPES and can (INDWELL) any living Soul (or Being) that includes Yahweh or Man or Angles. Jesus tells us Spirits when not in a Body go about in “ARID” or DRY Places Looking for rest. These are not Angels but Spirits and they can come into a person or leave him.
Point is Angels can not do that why? becasue Angels are “Beings” while Spirits are not beings, but are what inhabit Beings rather Angels, Yahweh, or Man or any living thing that exists that has life in him and that life is what those Spirits are (IN) him rather clean or unclean Spirits are there Life becasue they give us our “Cognate Thoughts” and that is what Life IS. God is SPIRIT he is not a Being He is the LIFE of Beings , Therefore it say If the SPIRIT of HIM who Raised Christ form the dead dwell in you (IT) Shall “ALSO” Quicken YOU MORTAL (dead)
BODY. Notice it say (IT) Shall , Why an (IT) instead of a He or She or Angel ?
Jesus said we will be as the Angels of Heaven and Scripture say we will have Bodies Just like Jesus does, a body that was illustrated by John in Revelations But none the less a Body. Not Just SPIRIT alone if that were the case then our Spirits would exist in a Naked state.
Here is something else to consider about Spirits a Single type or Kind of Spirit can exist in everyone at the same time. Angels can not do that, Why because they are (BEINGS) who have Spirit (IN) them Just as we are Being who Have Spirits given by GOD (IN) Us also.
There is not difference between us and Angels except there Bodies can not die becasue they are Spirit generated “Bodies” and we, after the resurrection, will also have Spirit generated Bodies also (Not SPIRIT Bodies) but flesh bodies that can live for ever becasue we are allowed to eat of the Tree of Life and our Bodies will live for ever and our Spirits that are (IN) those Bodies will cohabit those bodies also for ever.
Toby when i take all the other scriptures into consideration about What Spirits are i am still convinced Spirits are Not ANGELS, no more the WE are Just Spirits either. Spirits are (INTELLECTS) that cohabit BODIES, they are like Spokes in a Wheel each adding to the overall, Structure of what is existing as a whole, but they are not the Whole by themselves. There are Seven Spirit (intellects ) of GOD, why is that when GOD is Spirit is that not that GOD is a composition of Spirits Himself.
Another way of looking at it is like strings of Information, each string adds it's part to the whole. WE all have Spirit in us and that spirit is what our life is, rather good or evil, clean or unclean what ever we sow to, from that spirit we recieve into us, and that become our life we live, becasue Just as Jesus said Spirit is Life. No where did Jesus say as i recall Spirit are Beings themselves if they were they would not try to be in another being, “For the Spirit earnestly desires Us”, See that is not a Being that earnestly desires us but a Spirit. Spirits or (Intellects) can be shared by existing (IN) millions at one time, but “Beings” can not be. IMO
God who is Spirit (intellect) can TRULY exist (IN) a PERSON , Just as He did Jesus and God considers our BODIES TEMPLES HE can INDWELL Also. That the scripture which says GOD may be IN YOU ALL and THROUGH YOU IN ALL can be true. Did Paul not say “know you not that your “BODIES” (ARE) the temples of the LIVING GOD. See it is the indwelling of Spirits that counts. So to me Angels are not Spirits, angels Have Spirits (IN) them also.
I am still trying to look into this more this is Just my opinions Toby. Spirit is a vital subject becasue to alters our outlook about many thing said in scriptures . Like for instance many believe there is a Satan “BEING” going around jumping in and out of People and distinct Person, While I do not believe that at all I believe that the Spirit (intellect) is what is causing a person to be a Satan , Like where Jesus said to Peter “Get behind me SATAN , Peter was not a Satan BEING nor did He have a SATAN (BEING) in Him. What he had was a Spirit (intellect) of an Adversary to Jesus working (IN) HIM and controlling the thoughts of his Mind. Again i maintain there are not such thing as SPIRIT Beings there are Spiirt working in the Minds or parts of all living things. IMO
peace and love to you and yours Toby……………………………………………………..geneMarch 21, 2012 at 8:34 pm #286671
Well done, I finally understand what you mean.
I don't say I agree but only that I finally see that you are saying that there are 'Angels' and that there are 'Spirits'.
Angels, to you, are Heavenly Beings with a Spirit in them.
Spirits are cognate thought that can be Clean or Unclean.
I get what you are saying…
Ok, let's examine the rest of what you said:
I don't understand the verse you quoted. Why did you use one that is convaluted? I didn't understand what it was saying. Did you deliberately pick one like that – where was it quoted from (Source please). Gene, are there not any Scripture commentaries to explain that verse or are you going to 'Lean on your own understanding'?
Also, did you answer the question of where the Scripture says God made Angel Bodies and put Spirit in them – and – what those bodies are made of?
Additionally, you ask me to explain why Angels are Spirits.
Here it is again:
An Angel Spirit is a Spirit Messenger of God.
A non-Angel Spirit is one of (for instance) a 'Cherub', 'Seraph', 'Power'.
I say that none of them have bodies but are the 'the cognate thought in a human being' but a 'Free thought' in the Spirit World'.
Gene, what is Heaven? Is it not the realm of 'The Spirit'?
If Angels are not Spirits, what are they doing in the Spirit Realm?
I say that they are not in any kind of Body. And by the way, the aspect of saying 'Spirit Being' is something between you and others. I agreed with you, remember, over your thoughts on 'Being or Not Being' and tried to get the discussion moved on. Do you remember that?
When a Spirit comes into the physical world it can envelope itself in a shimmering body-like structure that resembles a Human Form.
The Spirit came to 'Deliver a message from God' and therefore is called 'An Angel' – 'A Messenger'. (Do you need examples: read about any or all the encounters of Angels and mankind)
it is possible, as I mentioned, that the Spirit was only interacting in the mind(s) of the person to whom it came and was not therefore seen by others who were at the same place.
Of course, some situations required it to have a Flesh-Like body as with Abraham and Lot.
To illustrate the 'Spirit as a vision' consider that Balaam was confronted by an Angel with a Sword? Now why on earth would a 'cognate thought' need a Sword to stop a human being when even a touch from an Angel could kill? No, the Sword was symbolic of it's authority to prevent Balaam committing a great sin against God's people.March 21, 2012 at 8:40 pm #286676
1 Kings 22:21 / 2 Chronicles 18:21:
“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, `I will entice him.' And the LORD said to him, `By what means?' And he said, `I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, `You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go forth and do so.'”
Explain please (Notice that this Spirit was not delivering a message but carrying out an act of persuation and therefore is not said to be 'an Angel – furthermore, the Spirit is suggested to be 'Satan' who was an Angel or a Cherub)
Just out of interest, how do you explan what a 'Demon Spirit' is?
My understanding is that it is a 'Fallen Angel'.
If Satan is a Spirit, how did Jesus say that he 'saw Satan fall from heaven like a lightning strike' corroborated by Revelation 12:7,9,13
'The great dragon (…and HIS ANGELS…) that had been cast down to the earth…'?
Remember that the title 'Satan' is only that, a Title, for one who is a 'Deceiver, Liar, Opposer'.
In Rev 10:11, 'Satan' is described as 'the Angel of the bottomless pit'.
Gene, the aspect of Satan demonstrates that HE/IT has great influence over the minds of people and can do so to a great many people at the same time. Mass or Individual influences can be carried out by an Angel or a Spirit. Both can invade the mind of a person and influence that person's own Spirit to do Good or Bad. So it cannot be said that 'Satan' does not exist – else the whole of Scriptures is purposeless and delusional.
If the Angel Spirit called '(a) Satan' is not real then please explain all (or as many as you like) passages referring to Him/It.
By the way, Satan doesn't 'Jump in and out of people'. You say this to convince yourself. What would happen if you stopped thinking of a Spirit 'jumping in and out of a person'? What if you think of it 'Invading, infiltrating, influencing, manipulating, deceiving' the 'Cognate thought of the person'.
Gene, can I not 'infiltrate' your mind and thoughts? How many times has someone tried to manipulate your thoughts, have you never been badly influenced by a 'lying Spirit'?
Be honest to yourself. Convince yourself!
An Angel is simply a Messenging Spirit.March 21, 2012 at 8:43 pm #286677
Just one more thing.
In Revelation 21:10, John was 'Carried away in the Spirit'.
Was John's Spirit in a Body?
John is also 'In the Spirit' (Rev 1:10) when he encounters Jesus in Heaven. Was his Spirit 'in a Body' in Heaven?
If I'm writing to much, please tell me.March 22, 2012 at 3:13 pm #286787GeneBalthropParticipant
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Toby………I believe………..John was carried (IN) thought to the day of the lord, he was not actually there. Revelation is call Revelations becasue it is Spirit reveled. His “being” (body and Spirit) was on the Island of Patmos . Spiirt is Spirit and is never a Body of any kind, I think we do agree on that.
You gave a example of all the “POWERS” of a spiritual Body, I disagree with that , why becasue nothing could be more able to cause rebellion and individual power struggles then if every one had a spiritual existences like (that), unless we will be no longer (INDIVIDUALS), No to me GOD retains all POWER and Authority for ever, and He not only now, but in the future will Grant requests of ours. When Jesus said Blasphemy would not be forgiven in earth or in heaven (NOW) or in the (FUTURE) shows that that possibility does exist in heaven or in the earth. Spirits can not act as individual Persons because they are not they are ASPECTS OR PARTS of a Whole as i demonstrated by the Spokes of a Wheel, not being the complete wheel but only parts of it.
AS far as our natural bodies doing (by the spirit of God) great feats , Look at Sampson, or Elijah, and Jesus and Peter both walked on water, and Philip disappeared from the eunuch, All of this was done with our present bodies by the power of God. To me it is like God can transform our Flesh bodies to do anything he desires. What you show is a great difference between Angels and Us But scripture say, a “LITTLE” Below them are we. No scripture say a man will lose his body and exist in a spirit state without a body. I am not sure that is what you are saying or not though. I know there is definitely something important about a Resurrected PHYSICAL BODY though or scripture would not be so specific about it. Have you considered Adam and Eve Could have Lived for ever Just as they were had they eaten of the Tree (that which produces from self) of LIFE. My opinion is this that God would not have went through all the Lengths of this creation to see it disappear into a SPIRIT realm of Existence. In fact i don;t even think the word Spirit “REALM” (as an abode) is even written Scriptures. The word Heaven is a deputed word itself , there are some who would say it has nothing to do with a location at all, but with the level of Mental thoughts which are Higher in intellect then just the physical thinking is. Jesus said he was from above what was he referencing some think he was meaning he came from a Heavenly location, but I do not think that I think his reasonings and Mind set was above the level of the earthly mind set.
Spirit is to me simply put is “Cognate Thought” and has nothing to do with a Body or existence as a “Being” or Living SOUL of any kind.
Toby i think if we can Just cover One thing at a time we could make better progress brother.
Peace and love to you and yours…………………………………………………………….geneMarch 22, 2012 at 9:24 pm #286851
I never said that the Spiritual Body was a Spirit Body.
It is the resurrected body made glorious and powerful and uncorruptible.
That is written in 1 Corinthians 15.
It is not me 'saying it', i am paraphrasing Scriptures.
So from what I gather, you also agree that the resurrected body is the 'Spiritual Body' spoken of by Paul.
Remember, 'Spiritual Body' is an Incorruptible Body Flesh body with a Spirit in it.
It cannot decay nor become sinful as with the Natural Body.
Ok. I hope that is clear enough now.
The point is to get rid of the false trail left by those who wished to claim false ideology.
Paul states quite clearly that it is at the resurrection that the body that was out into the grave will be raised up in a Glorious, Incorruptible and Sinless state with power.
Jesus demonstrated this as a prototype with his own flesh and bone body that was able to do many things that were impossible for a natural body (Natural Body is the Sinful, Corruptible, inglorious body of flesh brought to that state by the Sin of Adam.
God will have restored the original body that was given to Adam when it was first created. This is the meaning of 'Heavenly Tent' and 'House from Heaven' : it means 'made from the Holy Spirit' and not the natural body that comes from procreation of sinful flesh. In other words, the Holy Spirit Renews the corrupt body to an Incorrupt state (The Corruptible made Incorruptible – by the power of the Holy Spirit)
Ok, Gene, any questions please ask -Ok?
While doing that – did you find out what 'God makes his Angels Spirits, and his Ministers a flame of fire' means?
(Think: The Shadow in the night Makes The Blind Dogs Bark.
Does this mean: the thief Makes Barks for the Blind Dogs?)March 25, 2012 at 5:08 am #287413
Can anyone with any new theories please post them now – or else those who still think they can justify their current ideology post them now, in such a way as a summary only (Short points showing the vital aspects of your belief) – If they wish to?
We now have eliminated 'Spiritual Body' as having anything to do with 'Body of a Spirit' – which, quite frankly, was always a red herring from night till morning time.
We know that 'Flesh and Blood cannot INHERIT the kingdom of God' is not the same as 'Flesh and Blood cannot ENTER Heaven'. The former is a Spiritual rendering, and means the equivalent of 'a sinful person cannot be an Inheritor of the of the kingdom of God' as shown by those who become 'Sons of God, Brothers with Christ, Heirs and Rulers of the Kingdom with Christ and to God'. The latter, is a Material rendering. Flesh and Blood, that is, material things (that is: of the physical world) cannot exist in the Spirit world.
Could posters please also be mindful of when to use the word 'Spiritual' and when to use 'Spirit'. There is, for instance, no such things as 'The Spiritual Realm' but there is 'The Spirit Realm'.
Also, please do not change the term 'Natural Body' to say 'Physical Body'. 'Natural Body' is the Sinful, Mortal Body as of the Fallen Man, Adam. 'Spiritual Body' is Sinless, Immortal Body as of the Risen Man, Jesus. Both are Physical Bodies!
Angels/Spirits have neither Natural or Spiritual Bodies, as shown by the very definition of the word 'Spirit'.
Some have tried to erronously claim that there are no definitions of 'Spirit' as pertains to 'Spirits' (…!!) in Scriptures.
This is clearly false, as the concept of a Spirit was well established by those who wrote the Scriptures, and therefore they would certain have had definitions and meanings of it. Indeed, Jesus Christ himself said, 'Spirit is like the Wind' (Cannot be seen, touched and is formless – but it can form a body using material matter from around it and become visible by that. It can also be anything from a gentle breeze to a powerful raging hurricane). The wind is formed from nowhere, does a job of work, and disappears to nowhere again. So indeed does the Angelic Spirit when it comes from the invisible Spirit realm into the material world and back again.
The Holy Spirit came as a gentle breeze onto Jesus and also as a furious raging lightening and thunder at Pentecost on the Disciples.
Angels were seen 'in the form of a man' and also as a 'Flame of Fire' in a bush that was not even scorched. Two other times, what were at first perceived as men, turned out to be Angels, who then 'went up (to Heaven) in the flames of a fire' showing that their 'apparently (Seemingly) physical bodies' we're not real at all.
So, what is it that is left?
Is it not:
“What happened to the flesh and bone body of Jesus when he was taken up into the cloud and into Heaven?”
What 'Body' will he be in when he returns?
We know the Angel said that he will be the same when he returns as when the disciples saw him leave: A Man in a Flesh and Bone body!
Yet we know he is Spirit in Heaven.
And we know that Flesh and Bone cannot be in the Spirit Realm – so what happened to the flesh and bone body?
Well, God created the Flesh and Blood body from the DUST of the Earth, but that is but a little thing for him. It is the SPIRIT that fills the body and animates it that matters.March 25, 2012 at 5:32 am #287422
…Jesus' Spirit is alive in Heaven because his Body is not Dead, it is Spiritual, everlasting, none decaying, incorruptible, and can be 'put on and put off' (as somebody said).March 26, 2012 at 10:36 pm #288031
And to finish the thread off…
So, here we have it: No one who claims that Spirits have bodies in Heaven, has been able to bring any evidence to the table. Every claim that has been made has been refuted using Scriptures – even the ones where attempts have been made to redefine words and terms to try to make them fit outlandish ideologies. In addition, changing words (adding or removing them) to try to alter the reading of Scriptures. If there was proof that 'Spirits have Bodies in Heaven' why was there a need to go to such lengths of deception to try to make it so – the evidence would be there and clear. Let's have a look at a few of the attempts (Remember that these are from those trying to say that Spirits have Bodies in Heaven):
1) “Celestial Bodies” means Angels!
(No, “Celestial Bodies” are 'Bodies that are Shining in the Sky', like the Sun, Moon and Stars)
2) “Terrestrial Bodies” are Sun, Moon and Stars!
(No, “Terrestrial” means 'Of the Earth or Ground', Like Territory and Terrain)
3) “Heavenly Body” means 'Body from Heaven'!
(No, “Heavenly Body” means the same as 'Glorious Body' and ' Spiritual Body')
4) Spiritual Body” means 'Body of a Spirit'!
(No, “Spiritual Body” is the Flesh and Blood body that is raised from the dead and made Sinless, Incorruptible, and Glorious, of which Jesus' Body was the prototype for all further Spiritual resurrections to come.
5) “Flesh and Blood cannot ENTER the Kingdom of God”
(The verse does not say that! The verse says 'Inherit'. 'Flesh and Blood' just composes the material Body – it, itself, is not something that Inherits anything, therefore the meaning cannot be as many attempt to say. In reality, 'Flesh and Blood', in context, is a Jewish Term meaning 'Those who are Sinful'. Now substitute the meaning into the verse and see that it fits! Contrast this with “Flesh and Blood cannot 'Enter' the Spiritual Realm”. Here “Flesh and Blood” (a Body) is contrasted with “Spirit”)
6) “There are Scriptures that describe the bodies of Angels in Heaven”
(So far the individual(s) who make this claim, have been unable to provide any such evidence, but just continue to make the claim. Ample opportunity has been given them to bring the evidence forward, but none has so far (nor could ever be) brought forward)
7) The Thread title has been modified “in use” a number of times, in an attempt to lock the 'evidence' down to 'Spirits in Heaven only', due to the fact that Demon Spirits on Earth are evidently not in bodies of their own, but in Human and Animal bodies only.
8) Ditto the previous point with regard to the Holy Spirit that, again, despite being 'A Spirit in Heaven' is clearly shown to Not have a Body.
9) “God has a Body and is sitting somewhere in Heaven and Spirits come and go from in front of him”
(This would be an impossibility if the Spirit has a Body. The idea of this would mean that God is a 'Finite Being' at a 'Finite Place' in the 'Infinite Spirit Realm')
10) “Angels were seen on Earth in Bodies”
(Angels were seen on Earth as a Flame as Fire or went up back to Heaven in a Flame of Fire. Angels were seen in Bodies (in the form of) that 'Were likened unto a Man'. Angels are always 'Non-Descript' in appearance, and wearing Shimmering White Gowns. They appeared seemingly from nowhere, and disappeared seemingly to nowhere – Just as Jesus stated: 'The Spirit is like the wind!')
11) “Angels have Wings”
(What would a Spirit need Wings for. Jesus rose up in the air without Wings and he was in a Flesh and Bone Body. Wings are Symbolic of something that flies in the air. What need is there to fly in Heaven – and, indeed, no Angel has ever been described as having Wings when seen by mankind on Earth).
12) “Jesus' body was 'Transformed to the Spiritual Body' when he rose into the air and into the cloud”
No Scripture says this. Scriptures shows quite clearly in a number of places that the Body of the dead is 'Renewed' from it's Sinful state (Natural) to its 'Unsinful' state (Spiritual) 'When it is raised up from the grave at the 'last trumpet' or 'In the Twinkling of an eye' if the person is still alive at the last trumpet)
13) “Jesus was in a Spiritual Body before coming to Earth as Man”
Follow the idea from beginning, and it will end with Jesus having 'Two Spiritual Bodies' (A new Cult Religion born here!), Still alive in a Spiritual Body while his Flesh Body was dead in the grave (Trinitarianism) and is in Heaven now with a Spiritual Body (Mormonism).
14) …more… presented, disputed, refuted, contended, and dismissed.
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