Do spirits have bodies?

This topic contains 5,410 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by  toby 6 years, 5 months ago.

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  • #285975
     toby 
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    Hi Gene,

    An interesting concept was brought to the table which I would like to discuss with you regarding the thread topic.

    I would like you to go along with me until we establish similar grounds of agreement on exactly what is being discussed.

    Is this ok with you?

    #285976
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2012,12:50)
    Mike………Answer to question one No i do not think DEMONS are Satan  Angels.


    Then you need to re-read the scriptures, Gene.  The Jews accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul, the leader of the demons.  (Beelzebul is Satan – just so you know.)  But Jesus said that Satan would not cast out his own, because a house divided cannot stand.

    Demons are spiritual followers of Satan.  Revelation calls them the angels of Satan, as well as another scripture I cannot think of right now.  So your first answer is wrong.  Re-think it.

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2012,12:50)
    Answer to question two is YES i do understand Angels “ARE” Beings and they also have BODIES………….


    This answer is correct.  Now when you re-read the scriptures and discover that demons are a name given to Satan's angels, you'll begin to understand that they are beings also.

    Then you'll be able to see that sometimes they're called “demons”, sometimes “Satan's angels”, and sometimes “evil/unclean spirits”.  Once you're able to see that, you'll be able to see even more verses in scripture where “spirit” refers to a spirit BEING.

    Your questions are off topic.  We are discussing the one God matter in the “Pre-existent” thread, not the “Bodies” thread.  Ask your questions there.

    #285978
     mikeboll64 
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    Quote (toby @ Mar. 18 2012,15:55)
    If you believe symbolism to be factual (Like Jesus being a 'Lamb as if slaughtered – and – a man with a double edged sword for a tongue…………….


    Don't fall into Gene's trap, Toby.

    Just because spirit sometimes refers to what's inside a person doesn't mean it always does.

    And just because symbolism is sometimes used in scripture doesn't mean that everything is symbolic.

    You think angels' wings are symbolic.  I don't.  Once again, I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine. And once again I agree to disagree with you, and therefore no further words are needed from either of us.

    #286043
     toby 
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    Hi.

    There has been much misconception concerning the nature of 'Spirits' in this forum.

    It is to be noted that there is a 'Metaphysical' meaning of 'Spirit' and a 'Metaphorical' meaning of 'Spirit' and the two should not be confused (Although in reality only someone who desires to be 'awkward' could really confuse the two meaning considering the context in which the word is used by the writer)

    Metaphysically, 'Spirit' relates to 'an invisible Active, Influencing or Animating force' such as that within a living earthly creature or given a name or title such as (the) Satan, 'Michael' and 'Gabriel' (others are not named but are visualised in symbolic terms as a Host in Heaven or 'in the likeness of (a) Man' in the physical world.

    Metaphorically, there is 'Spirit of Love', 'Spirit of the Law', 'Team Spirit', or even 'an Alcoholic solution', etc.

    But more importantly, there has been much misunderstanding concerning the usage of the word 'Angel'.

    This post is aimed at clearing up those misconceptions and misunderstandings concerning the word and term, nature and being of 'Angels' from the viewpoint of Scriptures

    (Just for the record, consider this: 'Man was made in the image of God' therefore no one of Mankind should ever call another of Mankind 'an Angel' for to do so is to belittle the image of God.)

    Although Angels are more powerful than mankind, they are completely created to act as Servants to God Almighty.
    Now, because of language, linguistics, inheritance of words, sentimental feelings, etc., the Word for 'Angel' from the Greek for *'Messenger'*, has been adopted into common language such that we call someone who does a merciful deed 'an Angel'…

    Why should we want to call a human being 'An Angel'? Simple: sloppy use of language intertwined with a desire for a word or term of endearment with disregard to it's original meaning and the implications of further misuse outside of it's scriptural meaning.

    So exactly what is, and who is, an Angel?

    Scriptures says they are 'Messengers of God', and they are invisible bodiless Spirit creatures, Spirit Creations of God whose abode is the invisible bodiless heavenly realm.

    Angels are extremely powerful… But limit their powers in the face of mankind as they have no authority to hurt mankind except in explicit ways and to explicit limits set by God (Satan, for instance, can influence a person to do wickedness by that person's own Spirit but he cannot physically harm that person, himself!)

    Their soul purpose is to serve God and whomever else he designates. Only the ones of the rebellion have ever done anything outside of direct orders of God (And thus they are doomed to destruction for that)

    Angels are invisible and bodiless but can appear in the fleshly world in the physical form of Man.

    When they appear fleetingly they do not acquire full bodies but are arrayed in near shimmering apparel and any time spent with them will soon reveal as 'not normal humans' as they are required to deliver their message, perform their deed and return to the invisible heavenly realm.

    But when they are required to remain longer they acquire more 'meatier' flesh bodies that require real food to maintain just as human flesh bodies require.

    Because Angels are pure power and energy they can also appear in other forms of energy outflow such as Flames, lightening, Wind… Energy can be turned into many different forms of power (Power is the Capacity to do work)
    The Spirit in Mankind is limited in power to prevent it harming itself and others outside of the physical laws of the natural world and thus destroying itself. This is because of its sinful state.
    However, when the body of Mankind becomes sinless and incapable of dying – in other words, it becomes 'Spiritual' – then the Spirit itself will be as powerful as those of Angels (as Scriptures says) and the body will no longer be subject to the laws of the natural world (as shown by Jesus entering a locked room or appearing at, and disappearing from, where he will and when he will)

    Angels are Spirits whose abode is in the heavenly realm … There are many types of Angels and not all come down into the Fleshly Physical visible world but serve God in the heavenly realm.

    Some Angels/Spirits do things we do not associate with angels by our sentimental language terms, like bring Delusion, Death, destruction, famine, floods… How does one align Angel as doer of good deeds with angel of Doom! Because God and Scriptures never said that Angels were soppy fat creatures that look like naked boisterous urchins with teeny wings, or mournful or prayerful long haired women in flowing gowns. This is an sentimental human conception!!

    And what of the new world not being subject to Angels? What does this mean?
    The work that Angels do with regard to the physical visible world will be redundant – angels will no longer come into the physical visible world for the world will be perfect and be in subjection to Christ and the other MEN IN SPIRIT – the Elect – the Begotten Sons of God, Heirs to God, Brothers to Christ who will sit in rulership over the Earth.

    God makes his Angels Spirits… I admit to having struggled to understand exactly what this meant but after prayer the solution and meaning came when I wasn't even thinking about it:

    “God assigns those heavenly Spirits who are to do his will on Earth the privilege of being his Messengers.”

    There are Spirits that are not made Angels, like the Seven Spirits of God which, Although SENT out in all the earth – are not called Angels, and neither are the four symbolic creatures in the midst of and around the symbolic throne of God.

    A Demon Spirit is a 'Fallen Angel' – no one in Scriotures has ever been said to have seen a Demon Angel (and a question can be asked as to why that is so seeing that holy Angels are recorded as being seen in the physical world!).

    But those Demon Angels have certainly been stated as invading the bodies of some Human Beings and influencing their behaviour. Why only 'influence' and what 'Behaviour'? Scriptures alludes to the Spirit (the Mind) of the person. The influence is to pursuade the person's own Spirit to do harm to the person's body or to another person's body or to influence the mind of another person.
    In other words, there is never anything of physical act committed by a Demon Spirit in the physical world (and a question might be asked as to why that is so seeing that holy Angels are recorded as acting physically in the physical world!)

    #286046
     toby 
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    Hi All,
    There were a couple of typo errors in my last post which I would have hoped to be able to correct in the same way as those who have Editing Rights in this forum. Sorry for that and I hope you can read past them.
    Also I mistakenly put '…Spirits … Not harm themselves… Because of sin…'.
    Of course, this should be pertaining to 'The Body' in that sentence. Again, my apologies and I hope you can substitute the correction as you read.

    #286049
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:20)

    Quote (toby @ Mar. 18 2012,15:55)
    If you believe symbolism to be factual (Like Jesus being a 'Lamb as if slaughtered – and – a man with a double edged sword for a tongue…………….


    Don't fall into Gene's trap, Toby.

    Just because spirit sometimes refers to what's inside a person doesn't mean it always does.

    And just because symbolism is sometimes used in scripture doesn't mean that everything is symbolic.

    You think angels' wings are symbolic.  I don't.  Once again, I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine.  And once again I agree to disagree with you, and therefore no further words are needed from either of us.


    Mike……….Spirit (SOMETIME) does? IT ALWAY DOES!. In fact without Spirit (IN) something it has NO LIFE at ALL, Because SPIRIT is the LIFE of what ever it is (IN)> That is what a Spirit (IS) it is what give life to ALL CREATION. (IT) Spirit is a (IT) Not a he, or she, but an (IT) Why because Spirits are what is life, they give us our cognate abilities of our minds.

    So it say
    “let this “MIND” be (IN) you that was (IN) Christ Jesus our LORD” , See how scriptures make sense when you understand what a Spirits are. Spirits are never “BEINGS” the are aspects of life which are (IN) Beings , all begins that has life has Spirits (IN) them.
    But none of those “BEINGS” are Spirit themselves. Spirit are Personified in Scriptures in many places , but that does not mean the are (PERSONS) or true individual Beings, they are (ASPECTS) or Parts of the Life Force (IN) Beings. i.e, Spirit of truth, of God, Wisdom, love, hate, evil, clean, unclean, deluding, adversarial (ha-Satan) all of these are spirits or aspects of Cognate thought which is the LIFE of a person, and none of them individually is a PERSON or a “Complete” BEING> Just aspect or attributes that are (IN) Beings. Spirits must be put together to compile a COMPLETE “BEING” .

    When men inject factuality into Metaphysical or Metaphors or Personification languages as Parables which are used in a “symbolic” structure it distorts the reality of the truth . This is why they come up with all kinds of false teachings .

    In fact even God the Father is spoken of by Jesus in a “Fictitious Illustration” or Proverbial language. Jesus said a time would come when he would show Plainly about the Father. Why do you think he said that for. It is obvious he was not showing the Father in a clear way, by Personifying Him IMO.

    Angels are Beings who have had their “SPIRITS” put (IN) them Just as we have Had OUR Spirit Put (IN) us also. Angels are not Spirit Bodies at all but are “BEINGS That have Spirits (IN) their Bodies, Much like we are.

    peace and love…………………………………….gene

    #286050
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Quote (mikeboll64 @ Mar. 19 2012,11:12)

    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 18 2012,12:50)
    Mike………Answer to question one No i do not think DEMONS are Satan  Angels.


    Then you need to re-read the scriptures, Gene.  The Jews accused Jesus of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul, the leader of the demons.  (Beelzebul is Satan – just so you know.)  But Jesus said that Satan would not cast out his own, because a house divided cannot stand.


    Mike. Again you think becasue the Pharisees say something that makes it so, Jesus never said He cast out Demons by a “Beelzebub” now did he?,  no matter what they “THOUGH” . But you again try to make it so when in fact it is not so.

    Drawing conclusion based of some ones false assumptions and trying to make it a fact is a big Problem i see with you Mike.

    To set this straight Jesus did not cast our demon spirits by any so call prince of demons, that is you and the Pharisees “assumptions” not the truth at all. Jesus cast them out by the “FINGER” of GOD. Just as he said he did.  

    And you still did not answer my questions and  to cop out by saying there are “off subject” only shows your real deceitful nature ,those question are about spirits.   They are no more off topic them your question are about demons. This topic had nothing to do with angels at all But SPIRITS HAVING BODIES ONLY, and all the rest was added by you me and others, But that does not stop you from demanding us to answer your questions and them you come back by saying Our are off topic, when you are just as off topic as the ones we asked.

    I guess we have a double standard here right, one for you and one for the rest of us . IMO

    peace and love……………………………….gene

    #286051
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Toby………..Metaphysical as i understand the word is to apply something invisible to something visible.  Like a Stone Statue having a (REAL) invisible Power. such as false GODS of the Pagans. A term which Plato and Aristotle framed for the Greeks in their Metaphysical reasonings.

    Metaphorical language is to use and analogy of something using another example to get the point across. Like to say EAT (meaning to take to ones self) instead of the physical act of eating food even though the similarities are there. Both are “taking to ones self” something but one is not food while the other is food. Like Where Jesus said we need to “EAT” his flesh. and “Drink” His blood. These are Metaphors not made to be taken as really eating his body or really drinking his blood , we need to apply the spiritual aspects to those words in order to understand them , Jesus was Just saying we need to take to ourselves individually His sacrifice of his Body and Blood for our sins.  This is a typical example of Metaphoric  language. IMO

    peace and love…………………………………………gene

    #286084
     toby 
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    Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 20 2012,01:28)
    Toby………..Metaphysical as i understand the word is to apply something invisible to something visible.  Like a Stone Statue having a (REAL) invisible Power. such as false GODS of the Pagans. A term which Plato and Aristotle framed for the Greeks in their Metaphysical reasonings.

    Metaphorical language is to use and analogy of something using another example to get the point across. Like to say EAT (meaning to take to ones self) instead of the physical act of eating food even though the similarities are there. Both are “taking to ones self” something but one is not food while the other is food. Like Where Jesus said we need to “EAT” his flesh. and “Drink” His blood. These are Metaphors not made to be taken as really eating his body or really drinking his blood , we need to apply the spiritual aspects to those words in order to understand them , Jesus was Just saying we need to take to ourselves individually His sacrifice of his Body and Blood for our sins.  This is a typical example of Metaphoric  language. IMO

    peace and love…………………………………………gene


    Hi Gene,

    Thanks for the feedback. However, I am well aware of the meaning of Metaphysical and Metaphorical and I doubly researched them before I used them as I am aware there are some here who will pick up on the smallest of errors to cause dispute even when the intention was obvious and clear (To wit: 'The Spirit, not the Letter')
    Metaphysical: (amongst other descriptions… 'Immaterial; Incorporeal; Supernatural)
    Are you perhaps just confusing this with 'MetaphysicS'?? (with the 's')

    However, I am glad that you stated that it was your understanding of the the word and it's usage.

    I absolutely agree with you on virtually everything you say concerning the Spirit in the Flesh Body of Mankind and also agree in part with the 'Influencing nature' of Spirits in the physical world.

    I do not wish to contend with you on the Heavenly Spirit as I understand your views are wholly different to mine – hence Metaphysical makes sense to me.

    As you have seen, I have supported you where I agree with you and said nothing where I do not.

    I also know that I cannot, and do not wish to, directly convince you that you have completely misinterpreted 'God makes his Angels, Spirits' (Which means to me: Angels are the MESSENGING Spirits of God).  

    ps. For your interpretation to say as you think it says the verse would have to read “God makes his Angels' Spirits or “God makes the Spirits OF his Angels”.

    Let me explain: (Remember, I not trying to convince you, just show you. If you like, you can convince yourself, ok?)

    As you know, in English we use the single Apostrophe (') added to a noun in the singular along with an 's' to show it's a possesive Noun: e.g. The Cat's Claws : Claw belonging to the Cat.
    In the plural we add it after the 's': The Cats' Claws : (all) The Claws Belonging to (all) the Cats.
    There are exceptions like where the noun itself ends in an 's': Jesus' Body.
    (We also use the apostrophe to reduce two words usually from sloppy speach: “It's” (It is), “Are'nt” (Are not), “Have'nt” (Have not))

    So, with that said, let's (!) examine the wording of that verse: “God makes his Angels Spirits”. Is there an apostrophe after or before the 's' “Angels” in ANY translation of the Scriptures?

    Let's write another sentence using the same format: “The man made his fingers drum”.
    Would you say that means: “The man made a Drum and put his fingers in it”?

    “The Tv company recruited their Charlie's Angels”. Here (note the Apostrophe for the Single noun) it means “The Angels (the girls) were recriuted for the (boss name) Charlie, they were Charlie's Angels – and not Angels (girls) were recruited as Charlies (Idiots – although having watch a few programmes maybe they should lose the apostrophe!!!)
    How about: “The Mother made (up) her children's Beds”. (note the Apostrophe)
    This means “The Beds OF THE CHILDREN were made up by the mother”
    Gene, without the POSSESIVE apostrophe it would mean: “The Mother made beds out of her children” (ok, tongue in cheek, it could have been but seriously unlikely)
    Finally, if you are right (which you are not but only if you say so) then what were the Angels before God made the Spirits and put it in them?

    Brother, consider and convince yourself for or against. Truth or fallacy. Perhaps there is a reason you desire the wording, that is plain to any native English reader, to read as you wish it to read.

    By the way, you do know that the word 'Angel' just means 'Messenger', don't you. That 'Angel' is nothing special except a way of stating a particular type of Spirit that is specifically used by God to deliver messages (to communicate verbally and or physically) with Mankind.

    Gene, you could say that the 'Angel' was only 'manifested' in the minds of those who God wished to see it (as shown by certain encounters: e.g. Saul of Tarsus, Saint Steven, Balaam, the servant boy on the field of battle) all these had their Spiritual eyes opened by God (others saw the Angels while in a dream like state or out of body experience) note that often others around then did not see the Apparitions but felt the FORCE and knew there was something happening. They were not affected by the apparition though. Moses, the bush was not burnt by the fire. So you could say that it was in the MIND of the person – as you describe as your belief.

    #286091
     shimmer 
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    For the different context to words, try this:

    'Can Water ever be considered to be Drunk?'

    Ok, it's a joke, but still.!

    #286117
     mikeboll64 
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    Gene,

    I have never said that angels are spirit bodies. I've said over and over that they HAVE bodies.

    Nor did I ever say Jesus cast out demons by the power of Beelzebul. I brought that accusation from the Pharisees up to show you that demons are Satan's angels.

    Gene, I don't know what to say to you anymore. It's like if I claim that Jesus was sent into the world, you'll come back saying, “NO MIKE! JESUS WAS NEVER MARRIED TO MARY MAGDALENE!”

    There is definitely a difference between what I actually write, and what you later accuse me of writing.

    So, never mind Gene.

    peace,
    mike

    #286368
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Mike…………Our disagreement is the “TYPE” of Bodies Angels have ,  Not do they have bodies or not, You well know this by now right?

    Mike this thread is about DO SPIRITS (HAVE) BODIES, that is the Issue here. So the word  BODIES is the QUESTION and (ARE) SPIRITS “BODIES” I Maintain SPIRITS are not and never were “BODIES” of any type. Spirits give us our cognate understandings and have nothing to do with being a BODY of any Kind. That Mike is the question.

    peace and love Mike……………………………………………………gene

    #286383
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Toby…………….Psa 104:4…..> Who makes his angels spirits: his ministers a flaming fire.

    The word for angels used there is Mal-awk' in Greek and says

    It is from an unused root meaning to dispatch as a duty; a messenger; specifically of God, that is , an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher:- ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

    Basically the word used there is just someone God dispatches or sends to deliver a message.  It is not addressing the make up of a being at all, rather a man or angels it is addressing the Spriti (IN) them. IMO

    Another thing to consider brother is that the Apostrophe  you mention was not even in the Original text it was added to it, by people prone toward that thinking. I do agree with you that if the correct English as you applied it, that would make what you say true here, But my doubt is that that is the correct original intent of that scripture.  I have an Greek study bible and will check it put further brother.
    But i would like you to remember that the Apostrophes were all added to our present text and did not exist in the original text. Let both dig deeper brother.  I could be wrong and if i am i will acknowledge it.

    peace and love to you and yours Toby……………………………gene

    #286411
     toby 
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    Hi Gene.

    Thanks for the reply.

    As regards 'Angels' you can see from the Hebrew that it is a word that designates an action to an entity.

    “A holy Angelic Spirit” is a Spirit that is a deliverer of Messages from God (I used the full title to distinguish it from a Demon Spirit and from a Human 'messenger')

    But even so, and with reference to the Apostrophe, a question to ask yourself is 'What was the holy Angel before, as you say, God put the Spirit into it'?

    No translation of either Hebrew or Greek could ever say 'God makes Spirits for his Angels'.  Nor, 'God makes Spirits and puts them in his Angels'.

    How many creation events were there?  The 'Angels'(?) would have had to been created and sat waiting for God to put the Spirit into them.  No Scriptures has any such utterings.

    As I say, convince yourself, for or against, from the evidence, or lack of evidence!

    #286413
     GeneBalthrop 
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    Toby……….It is my opinion they (Angles simply did not exist, God made them Bodies and added SPIRIT (intellects) in those “bodies” but that does not make “THEM” (just Spirits) no more then were Just Spirit. I believe, they like us are a mixture of a Body with Spirits (IN) them basically the same as we are only their bodies can not die. So that Makes the Angels simple a “LITTLE” above us and we a LITTLE Below them, and that matches scripture also. I really think we may be a higher level beings then angels because of our present sufferings, we are in my opinion God Crown Jewel of all creation. He sure goes through a lot with us and that has to be for some reason. IMO

    I am still looking into original Greek Sources so i am still open for you inputs and Mikes if he has the Hits-bula to come to the table.

    peace and lvoe to you and yours Toby…………………………………………..gene

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