Conception

This topic contains 1,458 replies, has 53 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 5 days, 14 hours ago.

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  • #12806
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,20:50)

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,10:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:22)
    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.


    Quote
    Acts 5:34  Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

    I don't see the verse I quoted being used in the manner you are referring to.  I see it in the same context as above.

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  to  them , “Why did you seek me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?


    Hi RR,
    Christ only called God Father.

    It is not a matter of who were teachers. Even Timothy speaks of those of the NT who are teachers. But they are servant teachers. They are under Christ.

    Gamaliel was a teacher of the Law. Paul had sat at his feet and had learned from him. But he no longer did. By the Spirit of Christ in him he could teach Gamaliel.

    The disciples of the NT were not advised to seek him out as a guide. Now they had Christ. Weak human OT teachers are far less than the Master.

    They had the inner teacher of the Holy Spirit.

    No man can any longer usurp the role God wants in our lives.


    Yahshua had not started his ministry at this time.  The Holy Spirit had not been sent at this time.

    The verse I quoted was when he was 12.

    I disagree with you.

    #12809
     Woutlaw 
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    Quote (david @ April 17 2006,01:35)

    Quote
    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)

    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    I'm confused.  Doesn't this scripture use the name Immanuel and Jesus?

    RR, what do you mean?


    Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23 says that the child shall be called Emmanuel, which literaly means God with us.

    Greek word for name=
    3686 onoma on'-om-ah from a presumed derivative of the base of 1097 (compare 3685); a “name” (literally or figuratively) (authority, character):–called, (+ sur-)name(-d). see GREEK for 1097 see GREEK for 3685

    Isaiah 9:6 says that the child shall be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Hebrew word for name=
    8034 shem shame a primitive word (perhaps rather from 7760 through the idea of definite and conspicuous position; compare 8064); an appellation, as a mark or memorial of individuality; by implication honor, authority, character:–+ base, (in-)fame(-ous), named(-d), renown, report. see HEBREW for 07760 see HEBREW for 08064

    No where in scripture was Jesus literally called Emmanuel, or Mighty God, or Everlasting Father, or Wonderful Counsellor. Why? because when these scriptures talk about his “Name”, it's not literal. I believe it's talking about his authority. Does Jesus have the authority of God his Father? yes siree he does. All things have been entrusted to the Son.

    #12810
     malcolm ferris 
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    A name represents a person, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38. That is not to say that the Holy Spirit and the Father are 2 different people, or that the Son is the Father. A firstborn son often bears the same name as his father.
    A name represents a person, to act in the name of someone is to act as an ambassador or representative or on behalf of that person. For Jesus to bear the name of Emmanuel “God with us” then God would have to be IN Christ, which the scripture bears testimony of.

    #12814
     Woutlaw 
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    A name represents a person, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ according to Acts 2:38?

    Malcolm, If you're trying to make a connection between Matthew 28:19 and Acts 2:38 I have a serious disagreement with you. Oneness people do this to try to prove that Jesus is The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Matthew 28:19 is another example of tampering of scripture, along with 1 John 5:7.

    There is a lot of documentation on the web that address this issue. But I don't need to use that documentation to prove that Matthew 28:19 has been altered.

    In Matthew 28:18, Jesus said,

    All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth .

    I believe that all authority has indeed been given to the Son. If the Son has all authority, then why in the world would we baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

    If the Son has all authority, then to baptize in his name would suffice.

    #12821
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Malcolm and Woutlaw,
    Perhaps, Malcolm, you are implying the true expression of Matt 28.19
    “….baptising them in my name…”
    in which case there is no conflict.

    Acts 4.12
    “There is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved”

    #12828
     Ramblinrose 
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    The following article sheds light on how to better understand Isaiah 9.6

    Isaiah 9:6

    #12829
     NickHassan 
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    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 18 2006,09:20)
    The following article sheds light on how to better understand Isaiah 9.6

    Isaiah 9:6


    Hi RR,
    So your expert in the article says that “eternal” in Is 9.6 instead should read “Age”
    NASB
    5703 “ad” {from 5710a “adah” to pass on advance}
    =perpetuity
    -continually [1] Eternal[1] ever[15] forever[26] forever*[1] forevermore*[2] from of old [1]perpetual[[1]to all[1]

    hmmm.

    #12830
     Ramblinrose 
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    I do not have a problem with the writer of the article using 'age' as I understand the verse as follows:

    Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (mighty god-like one), Everlasting Father (Father of Eternity), Prince of Peace.  (Note:  brackets mine)

    Youngs Literal Translations actually translates as follows:
    For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

    As the article shows, being called the father of something is because you were the first.  Yahshua is the first person to receive everlasting life he is therefore:

    Father of Eternity = Father of the Age to come.

    05703 de ‘ad ad
    from 05710; TWOT-1565a; n m
    AV-ever 41, everlasting 2, end 1, eternity 1, ever + 05769 1, evermore 1, old 1, perpetually 1; 49
    1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future
    1a) ancient (of past time)
    1b) for ever (of future time)
    1b1) of continuous existence
    1c) for ever (of God’s existence)

    #12831
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    That makes sense. Thank you.

    #12843
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    It may be helpful to look deeper.
    Matt 1.20
    “..Joseph,son of David,do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife;for the child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit..”
    The word translated as “conceived” in this passage[1080 gennao] has many meanings, by far the commonest being “born”. But it also can mean “begotten”. This is the only instance where it is translated “conceived” in NASB. Should it have been? Surely “born” is inappropriate but “begotten” may have been a better choice?

    #12844
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote
    Matt 1:20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived(1080) in her is of the Holy Spirit.

    Reinterpretation:
    But while he thought on these things, behold, an angel of YHWH appeared to him in a dream, saying Joseph, son of David(a) do not be afraid.(b) Take to you Mary your wife, for that begotten(1080) by yourself(d) is of the Holy Spirit. (e)

    (a) ONCE AGAIN the angel makes the point of showing that Joseph is from the line of David.

    (b) Whilst the phrase ‘do not be afraid’ can be left unchanged as in the original verse, a full-stop can be placed after it thereby changing the meaning of the verse to Joseph not being afraid of the situation at hand – thinking that Mary had had relations with another.

    Â For Joseph to take his wife unto himself infers that they must have been married. To live together was the final step of betrothal therefore the marriage must have already taken place.

    (d) Need to check strongs here:

    1080 gennaw gennao ghen-nah’-o
    from a variation of 1085; TDNT-1:665,114; v
    AV-begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1, be delivered 1, misc 3; 97
    1) of men who fathered children
    1a) to be born
    1b) to be begotten
    1b1) of women giving birth to children
    2) metaph.
    2a) to engender, cause to arise, excite
    2b) in a Jewish sense, of one who brings others over to his way of life, to convert someone
    2c) of God making Christ his son
    2d) of God making men his sons through faith in Christ’s work

    02029 hrh harah haw-raw’
    a primitive root; TWOT-515; v
    AV-conceive 38, woman with child 2, with child 2, again 1, bare 1, progenitors 1; 43
    1) to conceive, become pregnant, bear, be with child, be conceived, progenitor
    1a) (Qal) to conceive, become pregnant
    1b) (Pual) to be conceived
    1c) (Poel) to conceive, contrive, devise

    This is the only place in the whole of the NT where 1080 is translated as ‘conceived’. A woman conceives (02029), a man begets (1080). It is translated as born in cases where the child has physically been born or that we are born of God, but it is not being used in that context here. In the above passage the Angel is reassuring Joseph that the child is his as the child has been begotten by him.

    (e) The child was conceived by the ‘power of YHWH’. God ensured Mary’s fertility when having relations with Joseph for ‘the time had come’.

    #12845
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    Where did the “by yourself ” come from?
    It still makes a liar out of Mary and a rogue out of Joseph.
    No so amigo.

    #12846
     NickHassan 
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    Hi RR,
    Looking at some of the other things you have said. A Man begets[1080].Yes all the male lines are written using “gennao”[1080]as with those who are begotten of God as sons.
    But there are several referring to women too.
    Lk 1.13
    “..your wife Elizabeth will bear [1080] you a son..”
    Lk 23.29
    ” Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore[1080] and the breasts that never nursed..”
    Gal 4.24
    “..these women are two covenants, one proceeding from Mt Sinai bearing[1080]children who are to be slaves..”
    And Lk 1.57, Jn 16.21 speak of women giving birth [1080]while Lk 1.35 uses the word to speak of the “Holy Offspring”[1080]

    And what does “of the Holy Spirit” mean to you in Matt 1.20?
    You also have never addressed the question I posed about in which way is Jesus the Son of God?

    #12847
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2006,11:56)
    And what does “of the Holy Spirit”  mean to you in Matt 1.20?
    You also have never addressed the question I posed about in which way is Jesus the Son of God?


    Your first question was answered in part (e) of the above and I have answered question two in the 'Are we born with SIN' topic on page 15.

    #12848
     Ramblinrose 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2006,10:55)
    Hi RR,
    Where did the “by yourself ” come from?
    It still makes a liar out of Mary and a rogue out of Joseph.
    No so amigo.


    20 But while he  thought on  these things, behold , the angel  of the Lord  appeared  unto him  in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife : for that which is conceived (5685) in her is (5748) of the Holy Ghost .

    1722 en en en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT-2:537,233; prep
    AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
    1) in, by, with etc.

    846. autov autos ow-tos’; from the particle au au [perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind] (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:—her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, ([self-], the) same, ([him-, my-, thy-])self, [your-]selves, she, that, their(-s), them([-selves]), there[-at, -by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with], they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which. Compare

    I don't see how having relations with your husband makes a liar out of Mary or a rogue out of Joseph.

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