Conception

This topic contains 1,458 replies, has 53 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 5 days, 14 hours ago.

  • Author
    Posts
  • #12779
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  (5627) to  them , “Why did you seek  Me ? Did you not  know  that I must be about My Father’s business ?”

    The verse you quoted above was one I looked into some time ago.  

    What does it really say?

    Quote
    1722 en en en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT-2:537,233; prep
    AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
    1) in, by, with etc.

    To use the word ‘among’ would not be incorrect.

    Quote
    3962 pathr pater pat-ayr’
    apparently a root word; TDNT-5:945,805; n m
    AV-Father 268, father 150; 419
    1) generator or male ancestor
    1a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
    1b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
    1b1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
    1c) one advanced in years, a senior
    2) metaph.
    2a) the originator and transmitter of anything
    2a1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
    2a2) one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
    2b) one who stands in a father’s place and looks after another in a paternal way
    2c) a title of honour
    2c1) teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received

    2c2) the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
    3) God is called the Father
    3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
    3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
    3b1) of spiritual beings and of all men
    3c) of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
    3d) the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
    3d1) by Jesus Christ himself
    3d2) by the apostles

    To use the highlighted meaning above is in context of the verses.

    The word ‘business’ is not even part of the text.

    I don’t find that this verse is speaking about God.

    Should the verse be understood as follows:

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  (5627) to  them , “Why did you seek  Me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?

    In other words:     Why were you looking for me?  Didn’t you know that I would be here with the teachers?

    Luke 2:50  But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

    But they did not understand that he would be among the teachers teaching them and that he was to be the greatest teacher of them all.

    Can others see this?

    #12780
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,06:28)
    Scripture too states he is a son of David and as Mary was the wife of Joseph and it was necessary to marry within the tribe her origins should have been Davidic. The fact that Elizabeth was of another tribe and was related does not prove the relationship was that close that they had to be of the same tribe surely?


    Nick

    If the women had to marry into their own tribes as you suggest, it would be impossible for Mary to be the cousin of Elizabeth.

    Those commanded to marry within their own tribe were unmarried females who had inherited from their fathers.  Their fathers had no sons to carry on the family inheritance and if they were to marry into another tribe the inheritance would also move to that tribe.  These women were to marry within their own tribe to ensure this did not occur.

    Quote
    Numbers 36:1 ¶ Now the chief fathers of the families of the children of Gilead the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of the sons of Joseph, came near and spoke before Moses and before the leaders, the chief fathers of the children of Israel.
    2  And they said: “The LORD commanded my lord Moses to give the land as an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel, and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters.
    3  “Now if they are married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then their inheritance will be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and it will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry; so it will be taken from the lot of our inheritance.
    4  “And when the Jubilee of the children of Israel comes, then their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry; so their inheritance will be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.”
    5 ¶ Then Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the LORD, saying: “What the tribe of the sons of Joseph speaks is right.
    6  “This is what the LORD commands concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, ‘Let them marry whom they think best, but they may marry only within the family of their father’s tribe.’
    7  “So the inheritance of the children of Israel shall not change hands from tribe to tribe, for every one of the children of Israel shall keep the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers.
    8  “And every daughter who possesses an inheritance in any tribe of the children of Israel shall be the wife of one of the family of her father’s tribe, so that the children of Israel each may possess the inheritance of his fathers.
    9  “Thus no inheritance shall change hands from one tribe to another, but every tribe of the children of Israel shall keep its own inheritance.”
    10  Just as the LORD commanded Moses, so did the daughters of Zelophehad;

    #12781
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)


    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?

    #12784
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,08:23)
    Luke 2:49  And  He said  (5627) to  them , “Why did you seek  Me ? Did you not  know  that I must be about My Father’s business ?”

    The verse you quoted above was one I looked into some time ago.  

    What does it really say?

    Quote
    1722 en en en
    a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT-2:537,233; prep
    AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
    1) in, by, with etc.

    To use the word ‘among’ would not be incorrect.

    Quote
    3962 pathr pater pat-ayr’
    apparently a root word; TDNT-5:945,805; n m
    AV-Father 268, father 150; 419
    1) generator or male ancestor
    1a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
    1b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
    1b1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
    1c) one advanced in years, a senior
    2) metaph.
    2a) the originator and transmitter of anything
    2a1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
    2a2) one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
    2b) one who stands in a father’s place and looks after another in a paternal way
    2c) a title of honour
    2c1) teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received

    2c2) the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
    3) God is called the Father
    3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
    3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
    3b1) of spiritual beings and of all men
    3c) of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
    3d) the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
    3d1) by Jesus Christ himself
    3d2) by the apostles

    To use the highlighted meaning above is in context of the verses.

    The word ‘business’ is not even part of the text.

    I don’t find that this verse is speaking about God.

    Should the verse be understood as follows:

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  (5627) to  them , “Why did you seek  Me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?

    In other words:     Why were you looking for me?  Didn’t you know that I would be here with the teachers?

    Luke 2:50  But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.

    But they did not understand that he would be among the teachers teaching them and that he was to be the greatest teacher of them all.

    Can others see this?


    Hi RR,
    It could mean that.

    But since Jesus told his followers to call no man on earth father, teacher or leader it is unlikely he would do that either surely?
    Do you agree?

    #12785
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,08:41)

    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)


    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    Hi RR,
    Indeed all who know Christ as a vessel for the fullness of God's deity recognise that truly he was and is
    “God with us”

    #12786
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,08:41)

    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)


    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    Hi RR,
    Why also not
    “Wonderful” ??
    “Counsellor” ??

    #12787
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,09:32)
    Hi RR,
    It could mean that.

    But since Jesus told his followers to call no man on earth father, teacher or leader it is unlikely he would do that either surely?
    Do you agree?


    No I don't agree.

    Abraham was called their father even by YHWH himself:

    Quote
    Genesis 26:24  And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham’s sake.”

    'Father and Teacher' are used repeatedly throughout both the old and new testaments.

    #12788
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,09:56)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,09:32)
    Hi RR,
    It could mean that.

    But since Jesus told his followers to call no man on earth father, teacher or leader it is unlikely he would do that either surely?
    Do you agree?


    No I don't agree.

    Abraham was called their father even by YHWH himself:

    Quote
    Genesis 26:24  And the LORD appeared to him the same night and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham; do not fear, for I am with you. I will bless you and multiply your descendants for My servant Abraham’s sake.”

    'Father and Teacher' are used repeatedly throughout both the old and new testaments.


    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.

    #12789
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Hi RR,
    Where does it say Elizabeth is a cousin? It is a 'relative' in NASB. Do you even know all your relatives?

    #12790
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:22)
    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.


    Quote
    Acts 5:34  Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

    I don't see the verse I quoted being used in the manner you are referring to. I see it in the same context as above.

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  to  them , “Why did you seek me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?

    #12791
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:52)
    Hi RR,
    Where does it say Elizabeth is a cousin? It is a 'relative' in NASB. Do you even know all your relatives?


    Nick,

    I fail to see what my ancestory has got to do with this – always have to make it personal in some way don't you Nick. Why can't we just discuss scripture?

    It is well documented that the Jews kept records of lineage.  You could only be a priest if you were from the Tribe of Levi.  You can only be the Messiah if you are from the House of David.  This is why they kept such good records.

    Quote
    Luke 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin (4773) Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. (AV)

    Luke 1:36  And behold, your kinswoman (4773) Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. (RSV)

    Quote
    4773 suggenhv suggenes soong-ghen-ace’
    from 4862 and 1085; TDNT-7:736,1097; adj
    AV-kinsman 7, cousin 2, kinsfolk 2, kin 1; 12
    1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood

    2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

    #12794
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,10:57)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:22)
    Yes RR,
    But not about living men who usurp the role of God.


    Quote
    Acts 5:34  Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while.

    I don't see the verse I quoted being used in the manner you are referring to.  I see it in the same context as above.

    Luke 2:49  And  He said  to  them , “Why did you seek me? Did you not  know  that I must be among  my  fathers (teachers)?


    Hi RR,
    Christ only called God Father.

    It is not a matter of who were teachers. Even Timothy speaks of those of the NT who are teachers. But they are servant teachers. They are under Christ.

    Gamaliel was a teacher of the Law. Paul had sat at his feet and had learned from him. But he no longer did. By the Spirit of Christ in him he could teach Gamaliel.

    The disciples of the NT were not advised to seek him out as a guide. Now they had Christ. Weak human OT teachers are far less than the Master.

    They had the inner teacher of the Holy Spirit.

    No man can any longer usurp the role God wants in our lives.

    #12795
     NickHassan 
    Participant
    • Topics started 284
    • Total replies 67,949

    Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,11:23)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,10:52)
    Hi RR,
    Where does it say Elizabeth is a cousin? It is a 'relative' in NASB. Do you even know all your relatives?


    Nick,

    I fail to see what my ancestory has got to do with this – always have to make it personal in some way don't you Nick. Why can't we just discuss scripture?

    It is well documented that the Jews kept records of lineage.  You could only be a priest if you were from the Tribe of Levi.  You can only be the Messiah if you are from the House of David.  This is why they kept such good records.

    Quote
    Luke 1:36  And, behold, thy cousin (4773) Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren. (AV)

    Luke 1:36  And behold, your kinswoman (4773) Elizabeth in her old age has also conceived a son; and this is the sixth month with her who was called barren. (RSV)

    Quote
    4773 suggenhv suggenes soong-ghen-ace’
    from 4862 and 1085; TDNT-7:736,1097; adj
    AV-kinsman 7, cousin 2, kinsfolk 2, kin 1; 12
    1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood

    2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman


    Hi RR,
    So it means a relative of some kind, including possibly a cousin, but scripture does not specify how close that relationship is.
    I am sure I have relations who do not know me and whom I have never heard of.

    #12798
     Ramblinrose 
    Member
    • Topics started 0
    • Total replies 282

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,20:53)
    Hi RR,
    So it means a relative of some kind, including possibly a cousin, but scripture does not specify how close that relationship is.
    I am sure I have relations who do not know me and whom I have never heard of.


    Why would Mary leave so quickly and stay with Elizabeth for three months if she was a relative she didn't even know?

    #12799
     david 
    Participant
    • Topics started 68
    • Total replies 11,289

    Quote
    Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07)
    “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)

    David,

    If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?


    I'm confused. Doesn't this scripture use the name Immanuel and Jesus?

    RR, what do you mean?

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 1,459 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

© 1999 - 2018 Heaven Net

or

Log in with your credentials

or    

Forgot your details?

or

Create Account