Bible

This topic contains 899 replies, has 47 voices, and was last updated by  t8 1 month, 2 weeks ago.

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  • #41879
     itsme 
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    The Bible was written many thousands of years ago.  In it, it tells us many things, hundreds or thousands of years before it happened.  It is deffinately interesting.  In it it tells us that the earth was round, earth is suspended in space, the universe is running down, that blood sustains life, that stars produce sound, that the earth rotates on an axis, that the stars cannot be numbered , that man is made from the same materials as the earth, etc.  thousands of years before man even figured it out or found out (I have the refferences).  How do we know that man didn't get a hold of it or something and change it just to make it look better? I don't believe that happened, but could that possibly have happened?
      As the Bible was translated from language to language, did it get somewhat lost in translation? Ok, i'm just curious.

    #41880
     kyo83 
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    Bible is the one true word, we can believe in. If you ask whether that through the translation, will there be certain meaning or intentions that God intends to tell us be lost. There maybe, but it's very small amount of percentage. We can truly be assured that the Bible is translated by many faithful scholars who work tirelessly to see that future generations of believers will get the clearest most possible accurate meanings of the Word of God. :)

    #41881
     ringo111 
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    A very optimistic view kyo83- But the world doesnt work like that-

    As it says the days are evil, Be on your guard.

    They were writtings written down, some of GoDs mouth, some by direction of the holy spirit, Some by theyre own will. Regardless of the origon, They can, and are easily tampered with. Just look at all the strange versions of the bible out there, bibles that Call GoD a He/She, and gay bibles, and aquarius wikka bibles. Writtings kept under controll by a powerfull tyrant, a hellish body of 'the catholic church' . King James Version. Gay people who translated the 'NIV'

    We are not as far off from GoD – he is still looking and rewarding and longing to make us pleasing to him like in the days when these writings were given.

    The only uncurruptable thing that was given to, not only to the saints, but to all the world. That thing is a person, the holy spirit who was and still does, convict the world and lead all those who seek truth to find it.

    Its best to take all things to GoD , Even the most trivial, pray about it, Ask him to make you see the truth to take away the deception.

    #41882
     thehappyman 
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    :) Well stated John. The Holy Ghost inspired men to labor for it's writings. ………TY

    #41883
     itsme 
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    I do understand all that, and I deffinately love the Bible, but the reason I was asking this was because my friend was questioning me about it. He's not a christian and I just wanted to explain it to him in an understandable explanation. I do pray for him all the time, but I really do want to explain it to him. Please, do help me. :O

    #41884
     ringo111 
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    Its me.  Please read my previous response, which was diferent to the rest, and is practical and real, Not a deluded state of ignorance, Which many prefer to believe. Be on your guard, the days are evil.

    There are many bibles, But the one's that were proven and showed the prophecy about Jesus, Fullfilled prophecies are the More reliable Ones. But Then It is mainly governed by mans interpritation, I believe those who truely seek are given eyes to see the truth through the lies, if you are obediant to the passive measure (conscence), and greater than that is, doing the will of GoD.

    Many bibles say many things, these are  contrary, depending on the translator.

    So keeping this in mind, Anyone needs to make the foundation of theyre life, The search for truth.

    Because if it is the truth that GoD is not real, then you'll find that GoD is not real.

    And by searching for trueth, you are also open to the fact that there may be a GoD, that has standards for his creation to follow. And anything in between.

    GoD, has sent the holy spirit to the whole world, to convict, Encourage your friend to do what they see is right, so that GoD will have mercy on your friend and reveal the deeper truths that arnt mearly natural truths, but spiritual truths that only GoD reveals.

    #41878
     t8 
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    It is my understanding that the books in the bible are pretty accurate given the following logic and information.

    The books were copied by scribes from time to time as the books became old and wore out. Many of the scriptures developed in isolation for many hundreds of years, even millenia. When different families of scriptures are compared today, there are no noteable differences except minor spelling differences and word order, which is understandable given the task of copying one text to another. A few words have also been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed. Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies.

    If there were major alterations to texts and doctrine, then these different families of texts had to have made the same alterations with no knowledge of what each was writing. Such an event is extremely unlikely as the odds of that happening would be near impossible.

    Older bibles such as the King James were based on the 'Textus Receptus' which is supposedly less reliable given that many of the newer bibles are based on  older texts that were discovered later, including the Dead Sea Scrolls. The KJV has 2 passages that other bibles do not contain. One passage hints or teaches the Trinity, a controversy that developed later and became official doctrine by order of a Roman Emperor and Athanasius among others. I can give you an explanation of how that verse came into some bibles if anyone wants.

    When compared, the Dead Sea Scrolls show us that our modern bibles are quite accurate. These scrolls generally are considered to have been copied by the Qumran community, identified by most scholars as the Essenes, between the mid-third century BCE (Before Common Era) and 68 CE (Common Era), when the Romans annihilated the Qumran settlement. Their discovery in 1947 by a young Arab shepherd is regarded by many as one of the greatest archaeological finds of all time. Between 1947 and 1960, 11 caves yielded fragments of a total of 800 scrolls untouched for 2,000 years. The parchment and papyrus scrolls are a thousand years older than any previously known Hebrew manuscript of the Hebrew Bible and have been crucial to the understanding of scripture.

    Early Christian writings, e.g the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (dated 95 A.D.) cites verses from the Gospels, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Ephesians, Titus, Hebrews, and 1 Peter. The letters of Ignatius (dated 115 A.D.) were written to several churches in Asia Minor and cites verses from Matthew, John, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus. These letters indicate that the entire New Testament was originally written in the first century A.D.

    The book of Acts ends abruptly with Paul in prison, awaiting trial (Acts 28:30-31). It is considered likely by some, that Luke wrote Acts during this time, before Paul finally appeared before Nero. This would be about 62-63 A.D., meaning that Acts and Luke were written within thirty years of ministry and death of Jesus. Another piece of evidence is the fact that there is no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Although Matthew, Mark and Luke record Jesus' prophecy that the temple and city would be destroyed within that generation, (Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2, Luke 21:5-9, 20-24,32) no New Testament book refers to this event as having happened. If they had been written after 70 A.D., it is likely that letters written after 70 A.D. would have mentioned fulfillment of Jesus' prophecy.

    Finally, many of these older texts date way before the Trinity Doctrine was an issue. So why would scripture say that Jesus is not God but that he existed as the Word, with God creating creation through him and for him. For this reason I am inclined to believe the doctrine/theme/verses that Jesus is the son of God and that he was the first that God brought forth. I do not follow the reasoning that such scriptures were additions or mis-translations when these texts were quite a bit older than this later controversy. I added this last point for ringo111 sake and perhaps I should add this in the “Who is Jesus?” discussion. Later when I have more time.

    #41886
     ringo111 
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    Point #1 You talk about “the bible” as if there was only one version to read, only one translation. But that is not the case. There are many bibles that say all kinds of claims that are made up.

    Mormon bible, Aquarius bible, JKV , NIV, ASV, watever u want ,, they are all contrary in many points.

    This is why the holy spirit was sent, to guide those who believe into all truth.

    Jesus talks to the pharasees

    John 5:38-40
    38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[3] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    *holy spirit continues this same work, so scriptures are not to be followed as life, We are ment to ask GoD, as Jesus says, for the holy spirit, and GoD will Give him(the holy spirit) to us to lead us into all truth.

    *You see, Jesus asked GoD to send the holy Spirit, Who Jesus said that he will ask GoD to send when Jesus Left earth To be by GoD's side. Jesus said that this spirit of truth, would continue Jesus Work. And that If He(jesus) did not Go, then the holy spirit would not be sent to all the world. Because Jesus is not omnipresent, He knew the holy spirit could do a better Job at bringing more people into truth at once then himself.

    Point #2 Jesus came into being by GoD's voice, Gods voice comes out in Words! like we have words, or a word, Like people say, “I have a word” when its more than one word that they say(constantly done in OT). John 1:1-5 Is a fake, Or a severe misinterpritation. Jesus and GoD show elsewhere who made what, You are in severe error in that point.

    Point #3 – the point that t8 put for me. The earliest writings do not say that GoD created the world through Jesus, Please resume that discussion in the other thread as you have ignored many points.

    Your interpritation takes writings out of context, Jesus himself Testifies that GoD the creator created man, heaven and earth. All we need to find is one thing created by GoD alone to proove that not everything was made through Jesus, But we have 3 things listed specifically by Jesus that were not made through him, but by GoD. No-where is Jesus accredited to creation, he is the firstborn of creation, therefore how can he be firstborn of himself?? If all things are creaed through him??

    That is contradiction to believe that Jesus created all things, because he did not create himself, He is included in all things, just like man, earth heavens.

    God also said, he who created all things is GoD. And by no-one else did he make them, By his own hands he stretched out the heavens!!!!! Not by the Word!!! Not by Jesus!!! By his own hands!!! GoD does not miss out critical things like that.

    Even your attempt to call Wisdom the creative vessle that GoD uses is a direct lie formulated by your own beliefs, For that quote only says that wisdom Watched GoD create all things, and then worked by GoDs side, after everything was created.

    I seriously hope you think about these points. ^_^

    Seek tha truth Yo!!!

    #41887
     t8 
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    ringo111, you ignore the scriptures to your own peril.

    Also you have made it quite clear to me that you believe that bibles are unreliable, therefore why do you even quote from them at all? You use scripture to backup your believed doctrines, so your own arguments are based on what you believe to be faulty. How can we take anything you say from scripture seriously, when we know what you think of it?

    A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

    #41885
     ringo111 
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    I do not call all writings faulty, They must be tested and weighed against what is presented. The wiegh is the Torah, and the writings themselves. The scriptures that Jesus & the disciples called the scripture was the Torah(Jewish writings)

    The Toarah, Is Extreamly reliable, As We have Many peoples that held those same Books. We ad the several Tribes of israel, Then we had christians, and Muslems, all keeping record of the same Books.

    As for the new testiment, You There are so many contrary points that exist today. GoD has not left himself without true witness, Thats why parables exist, Because those who read them that want to change the book to say as they want to say, cannot understand them to change them to allighn to theyre own doctrinal views.

    Then weigh New testiment VS(verses\against) Torah, Then wiegh NEW Tesiment VS(verses\against) New testiment, Weigh scripture VS scripture, Biblical writings VS biblical writings. Because historical evidence of tampering is really hard to find. But when you test bible, by the bible, You then expose the lies.

    You yourself egknowledge that The BIBLES are tampered with, and have been tampered with.

    Yet you rebuke me, accusing me of ignoring GoD's scriptures. This is untrue, I address the lies with the truth found in the writings handed down, Who's originators wrote mostly by GoD's will, But these are and have been tampered with, Which you egknowledge,,,,, yet for some strange reason,,… you rebuke me for the same belief.

    My way of thinking of Test everything, Praying that GoD takes away your reality, and shows you his reality for you. Leads me to this line of thinking, This is how Ive come to many conclusions about the bible and been backed up by historical facts as I move along. In the same Way that I knew the trinity was not true, By the many parables, and sayings. Despite what Men call scriptures, and the many “evidences” in our current bibles For GoD to be a trinity. You are ignorant If you do not think that if you read the bible, you could not come to the conclusion that GoD is a trinity. For there are many tampered Phrases within the bible that state, and support the trinity theory. The most recent evidence of tampering of which I've been aware of by historical fact is “father son holy spirit” baptism found in Matt, When all other cases are baptised into Jesus name, A rather obvious tampering, But a tampering, and widly accepted into doctrine tampering.

    But as for me, Without knowing First hand the history Of all these books, with praying to GoD, The true giver of truth, and all that is good, submitting myself to him as he commands asking for the holy spirit to lead, That Jesus said was more important than reading “scriptures”. I had an understanding without knowing that specific things were forgeries, Came to the conclusion that writings were forgeries, then I find out later that they are, I have not been wrong in this.

    And as the majority, and indicating factors, As Logic, and reasoning, also included, with what is written.

    This is an example of this process- It is obvious that GoD created all things by his own hands.  And that those few writings in the bible to say contrary are lies.

    For GoD could not have made all things through Jesus, If Jesus was created.

    If that were the case than, It would read, 'God created Jesus, Then created all things through Jesus.' But The majority, does not! And once more, says the very opposite.

    You accuse me of double mindedness, for the very same thing that you yourself egknowledge.
    That is *That the BiBlE has been tampered with by unstable men, wanting theyre own perception seen, for power gain, unstableness, evil reasons. And not for truth, not by GoD's will.

    By you doing this to me, you are being a hypocrite, I prayed, what else should I write? and this came to mind. Be carefull man, GoD hates hypocrites. Please Dont harden your heart, I pray that You will take this well.

    For the same thing that you accept, you then say that I do not believe the scriptures.

    This is a faulse claim!

    GoD did not leave himself without witness, and out of the records kept, those who wish to see the truth will see it through the lies, through the tamperings, and by doing this, knowing that the days are evil, and that in the last days men will gather around themselves teaches, to tell theyre own itching ears what they want to hear, Knowing that “scripture” does not give life, But that You ask GoD to Give you the holy Spirit, who Jesus says, will continue his own Work of giving life, because GoD gave Jesus that authority to Give life.

    You my friend, are being ignorant here. Please consider what Ive had to say.

    I do not call all bible writings fake, In fact it is because of those writings that the faulse, cropped lies are exposed.

    ******************************

    I seriously wonder what you do that makes you so unable to see these simple truth's.

    Please correct me if im wrong about your understanding of these truth's.

    I am not writing this out of spite, But of honest seeking of what is right.

    I guess by ignoring me, you are doing what the pharasee's tried with Jesus, But because of his power, they could eventually not ignore him, So instead of triing to see what he was saying was true, Decided to kill him instead. Are you going to try the same thing here t8?? Are you going to try to phase me out?? If not by discrediting me, Then if that doesnt work by pure deletion?? i hope not  

    I hope that this is not the case. Time will tell. And for all those who read this, I hope you continue in your search, If you agree with me or not about my interpritation.

    I would encourage you all To Seek trueth over mens opinions, And that an excelent way of doing this, is to ask GoD to send you the holy spirit, To guide you into all trueth.

    L8rz

    #41888
     t8 
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    In answer to ringo111, but for the benefit of all who read this discussion.

    The Torah doesn't contain the gospel, nor does it contain the great commission. But if you think the NT is unreliable, then the gospel is also questionable is it not? Even your belief that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth is questionable as the NT is where you get this truth, not the Torah.

    You then say that the NT tampering is hard to distinguish. That is not true. Yes tampering exists, but it is relatively easy to discover, because different texts were copied over the centuries in isolation to each other. All that needs to be done is to compare these texts including the Dead Sea Scrolls and additions, mis-translations and spelling errors will show up and do. Some can even be traced back to their beginning. If you looked into the evidence you would see that it would be very difficult to corrupt the NT given it's widespead circulation and development in isolation from one another.

    They couldn't have all made the same supposed mistakes, yet all these texts say that God created the world through Christ and for him. It is far more likely that such a verse was and is part of the original text, especially if all the texts include it and there is no known controversy with it.  

    For true undetectable corruption of all texts, it must have been done very early on (first century) when there were fewer copies to go by and when they were not in isolation to each other. Even then to put the same mistakes in all the texts in those days would have been an extremely difficult task and I am sure that it would have been discovered even if someone pulled that off. Remember the first century Church read these writings and taught from them in obedience to doing all that Christ commanded them, even unto the end of the world.

    I can only see that such supposed undetectable corruption could only be possible if someone corrupted the first or first few copies. But then, the trinity doctrine was not an issue in those times and it is unlikely that such widespread corruption would have taken place so early, especially given the zeal that many christians had then and the fact that many of the Apostles in those days were discipled by some of the originals. We also had the oversight of the original Apostles in their watch?

    Again I disagree with your statement that the New Testament is full of corruption and we must only believe the part that agrees with the Torah. Again such a ruling rules out the Gospel and the Great Commission as well as the death and resurrection of Christ, that is if we use the Torah as our guide. So what do we have left? Perhaps that God created the Heaven and the Earth and that man sinned and God would save his people by his Law and his promised messiah. But even demons acknowledge that God exists and created the heavens and the earth.

    Who has bewitched you. You started off in the revelation of the new in which the men of old desired to see and now you go back to the old and say that a lot of the NT scriptures are corrupt. Perhaps it is possible that the corruption is in your own heart?

    A true disciple will obey God and truth. A disciple should not ignore what Jesus said and nor should he ignore the words and teachings of the Apostles. Men come up with all kinds of excuses in order to ignore truth. That is their problem is it not?

    John 10:27
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    Ephesians 2:20
    built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

    We cannot use the excuse of corruption to ignore the truth contained within the New Testament. I suspect that you will hold to your guns though. It's your life and your will and I respect that, but I really write this for the benefit of the other readers.

    #41889
     ringo111 
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    It is not so easy to detect lies, For many true people,, believe lies, Because they believe a persons statement, Someone who pretends to be holy, yet is not, And there are many quotes in bible that back up theyre claims, without consideration of all scriptues.

    Seccondly, You say that the torah, does not have the gospel. You are wrong, The prophecies of Jesus are all though it, GoD, talks about a new convernent, It backs up, and complements the true writings in the New Testiment.

    By these prophecies we know that Jesus message is to be obeyed, Knowing this, Jesus used the torrah to validate himself many times.

    You know that I revere many writings, of the new testiment, It is the fake writings/tamperings, that I am talking against, Not the true ones!!

    Jesus quoted the torah, To proove himself relevent, We are told by the New testiment writers, that the torah which they called scripture, This Torah was used, Well after Jesus rose from the dead, to be used For Correction, Rebuking, and building up.

    Why then Do you accuse me of being bewitched, When I am Mearly using the measure of which those who Kept the message of the fullfullment of the prophecies, The testimony of GoD about his Son Jesus, being preached. The measure that Jesus himself used to proove himself correct on many occasions.

    You by your teaching are calling Jesus a liier, Jesus makes no attempt to take credit for creation, Nor being part of it. Only that GoD created men, and earth.

    To use your own quotes.

    John 10:27
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    YeY for that, Anyone who seeks shall find, Therefore seek truth. For Jesus says, anyone on the side of truth listens to him. Jesus asked GoD to send the holy spirit so all people can enjoy the work that Jesus was a part of, making truth known.

    Ephesians 2:20
    built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

    Yes, the prophets came , and testified about Jesus, Then Jesus used the prophets testimony to proove that he was the christ.

    If you read the whole thing, You will see that the prophets are not ignored. But are a major part, Being the foundation itself, Jesus being mearly the cornerstone Of GoD's work.

    Ephesians 2:19-22
    19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

    God did not make the Kingdom of GoD by Jesus alone, But many prophets also had a hand in it. And Jesus and the disciples who came after Him, Quoted those prophets to proove themselves right.

    Please reconsider your view of me being bewitched.

    For I am taking many things into account, And not ignorantly ranting.

    As Im sure those who seek truth shall find.

    L8rz ^_^

    I still care for you my bro t8,

    Im glad you put up this site, that your being a fair admin. Its really cool.

    #41890
     t8 
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    ??? You still haven't proven why these scriptures are false. :cool:

    Except that it doesn't fit into your understanding of the Old Testament. This is dangerous thinking for anyone and I do not condone this type of recklessness. You also forget that the new is the FULFILLMENT of the old and grace is better than the Law. The New Testament contains the scriptures for those who live under grace.

    Someone else could take your license and for example could ignore all the scriptures that say that God is one, in order to prove their belief in the Trinity. Or what about removing all the scriptures that say that Jesus is the Messiah. That to is a doctrine just as God creating all things through his Word is.

    You see, a lot of the time I am talking to people who have already made their mind up and disregard all scripture that contradicts their understanding. So in this respect you are no better than the Trinitarians, Oneness people and all others who do the same.

    I can respect anyone who lets scripture change them, rather than them trying to change scripture. And I can usually tell the difference between a searching heart and an ego.

    I do not know how many ways I need to say this for it to sink in, but you ignore scripture to your own peril.

    #41891
     ringo111 
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    T8, I am not excluding any writings.

    I addressed them in full.

    I prooved them faulse, you just ignored them.

    Why dont you let scripture change you then?? It is by the scripture that this is obvious. Only a few contradictionary lies support your view, If you look closely you will see that you have in fact done what you accuse me of, that is, making changing scripture to suit your understanding. (Wisdom in Psalms). Wisdom watches GoD create all things, Was not used in creation, Then after all was made, Worked with GoD, as she continues to do today.

    Weighed it all, And found that Those few writings that said all things were made through Jesus are a lie.

    Just as the one's that Say Jesus Is GoD are Lies.

    Your scriptures that you say backup your claim from the old testiment, Only proove that what your saying is wrong.

    You use a scripture- Then you contradict it. Just as you were triing to use Hebrews 2:20 to support your statment. When Hebrews 2:20 contradicts your understanding, and supported mine.

    Jesus is only a conrnerstone, The prophets are the foundation. If Jesus was so important to our creation, Why would there be Many Ideas circulatiing like that??
    Allthough in itself is not proof, But indicates that Jesus is not as important in the grand plans as people like to think. He is very important, Just not as important as some like to think.

    Why dont you read the Testimonies about Jesus In the bible. Jesus could have failed, GoD says, If he shrinks back, His soul takes no pleasure in him. And others, And Jesus said that, GoD Loves him because he obeys what he commands.

    These all indicate that Jesus is not as important to our creation as you believe.

    Sure It still leaves room for doubt, That is , Untill you read GoD, and Jesus, and Kings, Prophets, Angels, Testimonies that GoD alone by his own hands made everything.

    Jesus testifies that GoD created The heavens and the earth and man.

    Not Jesus!!   GoD created them!!

    It is quite Obvious if you open yourself to understanding more than what you do, I was open to see If I had been mistaken in my previous explorations into this subject, saying, maybe GoD did create all things through Jesus.

    But then Comes the contradictions.
    If Jesus is apart of the creation of all things, then if GoD created anything without Jesus then, That belief is a lie. Jesus testifies that GoD created man, earth, heavens. Not through him, Nore does many overwhelming amounts of places, Contribute creation to GoD alone, No-where in the old testiment, Is there even a unexplained hint of anyone other than GoD being part of creating.

    Also, another contradiction. GoD is specific, and does not lie, Jesus is not before all creation, He is one of many creations. He was before our creation, But not before all creation.

    If Jesus was before all creation He would have to be GoD, and we know that is not true, If everything were created through him, Then it should read 'after Jesus was created, all things were created through him' But those faulse scriptures, are theyre own downfall. For they claim that All things(which includes Jesus) were made through Jesus.

    Therefore all that needs to be prooven is that Jesus was created. For he cannot Be a creation of himself.

    Jesus could have failed like any of us, The prophets compare Jesus with created things, Like

    Hebrews 1:5
    For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father”[ 1:5 Psalm 2:7] ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”

    Many other things like, Jesus Says

    John 5:26
    For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

    It is a gained quality, for Jesus to have life in himself, Therefore He could not have been before all creation. For He is a member of that creation! He was Created Before His time On earth. But not before all created things.

    THerefore Jesus was created by GoD and then GoD gave Jesus life in himself.

    You see, Hopefully Now you will Look deeper??

    Ah wellz, Take care.

    #41892
     t8 
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    To ringo111,

    Quote
    I prooved them faulse, you just ignored them.


    i.e. You don't understand how those scriptures fit into your understanding of things.

    I accept all the scriptures even if I don't understand them because I know that I am here to learn truth, not to create it. You accept the ones you understand only.

    You also go on about Jesus being the cornerstone as if it backed up your argument somehow. But the point was that we should listen to all the teachings of Christ and the Apostles as they are the foundation of which true faith sits on. So if Jesus and the disciples teach that Christ was the firstborn of all creation and God made all things through him, then I accept that. You do not.

    Your mis-understanding of why I quoted this only shows that you can mis-understand things in the first place and maybe just maybe, you also misunderstand the scriptures that teach that Jesus is the firstborn.

    I am open and teachable and if I am wrong then I will replace it with truth if it is shown to me. But your theory and reasoning appears to me as reckless and because of that, I do not have much respect for your leaven. I think that you have a lot to learn about people. We are not as stupid as you may think, we do after all have access to the Spirit of Truth who will lead us into all truth and will bear witness of all truthful words.

    The point of this Forum is to promote truth, understanding and reasoning in order to learn more about our wonderful creator and perhaps in turn the quality of persons coming here could be high too.

    The problem that plagues all truth seekers, are those people who from their own understanding spout off doctrines that sound good to their ears and like stuborn mules they are unable to learn and reason, even if scripture contradicts them. To make matters worse, many of these kinds of people also resort to spam in hopes of drowning out any good thing. This is one of the tactics of the enemy, to just flood people with lies and filth, in the hopes of drowning out any honest search for truth and purity. In your case you may not spam your ideas, but you are to a degree wasting my time.

    To say that scripture is not scripture if it doesn't fit into your understanding is not only obviously wrong, but anything you say to support your idea of ignoring scripture is just smoke. Easy to say, but where is your proof? Please just clear away the smoke and show me why these teachings in ALL New Testaments are fraudulent.

    It is obvious that you do not have any proof, so this particular argument ends until you can front up some evidence or at least a feasible scenario of how these so-called lies got into ALL NTs. ???

    My conclusion about your teaching, is that you should read more or all scripture pertaining to the Christ and pray that God may give you understanding.

    I honestly read your posts in the beginning to perhaps learn something, but now that you have made it clear what you teach, I will take what you say from now on with a pinch of salt.

    If you ever preach the gospel to someone, talk about the prophecies in Revelation, teach about Jesus, or repeat his or the Apostles teachings (including turning the other cheek, as opposed to eye for an eye), then don't be surprised if they say to you that the NT is corrupt and your faith is worthless.

    Remember this, you will not be able to defend your faith with the NT. You have left yourself without a witness and you will not be able to back your words up. You of course can preach from the Books of Moses (if you want to be true to your heart), but I think that you will be seriously out of date in a lot of ways. Many things have changed since that time. We now live thousands of years after that time and God has accomplished a lot since then.

    Anyway, I have no idea how one could even know Jesus teachings without the NT, but I suppose that if one is convinced that the NT is unreliable, then the whole Christian faith, including the death and resurrection of Christ becomes questionable.

    This is the road that you are heading down.

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