Before Abraham I AM

This topic contains 144 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Truthcomber 4 months ago.

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  • #831672
     Truthcomber 
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    I will continue on with this topic on the new thread: “spirit and soul”

    #831688
     t8 
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    Are you Jesus? I am.

    Are you Gene, I am.

    Are you Truthcomber? I am.

    That is what it is.

    Like saying it was me. When you say Before Abraham I am, you are saying you you existed before Abraham.

    Jesus used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times like: “I am the bread of life”.

    ‘I am’ is talking about yourself. So Jesus was himself before Abraham.

    He is the one who said it too.

    Of course Jesus sheep listen to the shepherd. Other listen to others.

    #831689
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    Yes you would think that if you could not hear the Spirit speaking through him.

    #831690
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    ‘I am the bread of life’

    Yes the Spirit is the bread of life.

    Feed on the Spirit in the word and you will live.

    The words that I have spoken to you, they are spirit and they are life.

    ‘Man cannot live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God’

    #831691
     t8 
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    Jesus the man is not the Christ to you.

    You deny Jesus is the Christ.

    Very dangerous ground. Especially the older we are.

    #831693
     Truthcomber 
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    “I Am” before Abraham in the resurrection.  Christ did not pre-exit.  Abraham longed to see that day of his resurrection according to the promises.  The Messiah is the resurrection and the beginning of the new creation.

     

    Nick wrote:

    There is a division between soul and spirit as Heb 4:12 states.

    http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-2.htm

    http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm

     From the article above:

    Heb 4:12: “The NGSB comments on this verse: division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow. Though some find here support for the view that a human being is basically a trichotomy consisting of body, soul, and spirit, the context is against it. It stresses the power of God’s word to enter the deepest recesses of a person’s being, not a sort of division into constitute parts. Also, if the idea of division were intended, we would expect the author to say “bone and marrow” instead of “joints and marrow.”(17)

    Reverend Kim Riddlebarger arrives at a similar conclusion; but he approaches the verse from a different angle:
    In Hebrews 4:12, is its argued that the author makes a clear division between soul and spirit, implying that they cannot be synonymous. But John Murray contends that the verb used here – translated as “dividing” in the NIV – is never used elsewhere in Scripture in the sense of distinguishing between two different things, but is always used when distributing and dividing up the various aspects of the same thing (see Heb 2:4; Lk 11:17-18; Mt 27:35; Jn 19:24).(21) The point is not that the Word separates two distinct things – soul from spirit – but that “the Word of God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Heb 4:12). The Word does not divide soul from spirit, as though these were two distinct entities, but the Word does divide soul and spirit in the sense of penetrating our inner most parts.(22) “

     

     

    Nick continued to write:

    At death the spirit returns to God (Ecc 12:7)…

     

    Me:

    Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (soul); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

    Me: Notice in verse 19 that whatever befalls men befalleth beasts, and that a man has no preeminence over a beast at the time of death. So if you think that man has a spirit that is separate from his soul, and goes into heaven, so does any beasts’ spirit go into heaven. But that is not what happens. Verse 18 shows that men are like beasts that have death in their flesh, and so they die the same way, exactly the same way. But something occurred after Christ’s ascension into heaven.

     

    Young’s Literal Translation:

    Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

    Me: So what happened to Christ’s spirit that would be something that does not befall beasts?   Christ did not have death in his flesh. He did not have to die. But he became death and thus a sin offering for us (2 Cor 5:21). So he died the same way as men did before his glorification. He does not have both a human soul and a human spirit. Neither do we.  He was made in every way like us except there was no death in his flesh, and thus no sin.  It is death that causes us to sin.

     

    Young’s Literal Translation
    Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?

    John 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven.

    Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. (soul)” When he had said this, he breathed his last.

    Me: Christ’s soul is the first one that had his soul (spirit) that was in hell (hades: the grave) resurrected into heaven after his resurrection from the dead. He had committed his spirit (soul) to his father. The latter part of John 3:13 can be shown what that means in another post. It does not mean that Christ preexisted as God Almighty. God raised Christ from the dead.

    Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath (crucifixion is the correct translation) be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

    Me: wrath cannot mean The Day of the LORD, for the saints are already resurrected with him and are then with him. So wrath here means crucifixion.

    Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord (umbilical cord to life) be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (holy spirit) shall return unto God who gave it.

    Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living:

     

    Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 8 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

    Me: Mark 12:26 is speaking of a resurrection into life. But when does this occur?  Prior to that, no one had any consciousness.  Their spirits (souls) went back to the earth like the rest of the animal kingdom (Gen 4:10, Lev 17:11).

    John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

    2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

    Me: This is a vision of a man whose spirit was resurrected into heaven—whether he was dead or still alive, Paul could not tell, for it must have been powerful.

     

     

     

    Nick continued to write:

    At death the spirit returns to God (Ecc 12:7 but not the soul which sleeps in Christ (1 Thes 4:13) or awaits judgment (Rev 20:11).

    Me: 

    1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (G2837) in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (G2837).

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest ( G373) yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    Comment: The souls or them that rest in Christ are in heaven. The souls of them that are not in Christ rest in the earth. 1 Thes 4:14 pertains to the first resurrection when new bodies will be given to those souls in heaven and to those saints that remain on the earth at that time.

    Rest (G373) in Rev 6:9 means I make to rest, give rest to, rest, take my ease. It does not mean death at all.

    Asleep in 1 Thes 4:14: (G2837) One definition is still, quiet, calm and this would coincide with (G373) and not contradict the scriptures.  The definition of death in 1 Thes 4:14 would contradict rest in Rev 6:9.

     

     

     

     

     Nick wrote:

    We are bonded to the soul of Christ? These sort of ideas to not spring from scripture. Do not go beyond Phil 2:9 as Gnosticism springs from the imaginations of men.

    Me: It does spring from scripture. I have quoted you all the scriptures notable.

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me (Christ), and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet ____; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Ezk 36:26 A new heart (of Christ) also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

    Me: one more:

    John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

     

     

    Nick wrote:

    The soul is the life force of all creation? You have mention Ecc 3:19 but the life force is not mentioned.

    Me:

    Ecc 3:19 (NASB) For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (H 7307) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.

    Rauch: Heb 7307 Definition: breath, wind, spirit

    John 6:63 The Spirit gives life

    Gen 2:6 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

     

    Me: The body without the soul is dead. The body with the soul is alive (James 2:26). So soul and spirit as it pertains to humans are the same.

    #831696
     t8 
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    We need the Spirit to understand scripture. The Spirit doesn’t disguise truth by saying the opposite, the Spirit speaks the truth. Here is the truth that many here reject.

    to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

    … in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

    The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth

    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    “…out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

    And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

    So much truth in these scriptures, but also many deniers who deny. We are Believers who believe this. What are you? Believer or Denier?

    #831697
     Truthcomber 
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    That man is a spirit, soul, and body is a trinitarian concept, that is man is made in the image of God who is a trinity.  That trinity is correspondently, God the Father, God the son, and God the holy spirit–three different parts yet one.  Not true.

    #831699
     GeneBalthrop 
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    T8…who is the we you speak of, it’s only you, and some trinitarians who post here that believe that.

    TC…what i believe is that a living soul is simply a flesh body that has the breath of life in it, that at least is what Gen 2:6 says. I also believe there is a spirit in man.

    Job 32:8…there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.

    Job 3414-15…if he set his heart: upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; all dlesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto the dust.

    I think the very word spirit needs to be better understood by all. What do you think spirit itself is?

    Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene

    #831701
     GeneBalthrop 
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    T8….As far as the word “before” goes, what makes you think that means “existed as a being”, of some kind, you have no proof thats what Jesus was referring to. The jews of that day believed their connection with Abraham was their greatest tie to GOD, JESUS WAS JUST TELLING THEM HE WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM “IN IMPORTANCE”.

    IF JESUS WANTED THEM TO BELIEVE HE WAS ALIVE BEFORE ABRAHAM, HE WOULD NOT HAVE USED THAT LANGUAGE , HE SIMPLY WOULD HAVE SAID , “I WAS ALIVE BEFORE ABRAHAM”.

    Forcing text to say what it does not “specifically” say is bad form T8. You have yet to produce a single scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive before his berth on this earth.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #831703
     GeneBalthrop 
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    TC…I agree with you, the concept of a spirit, soul, body, is a trinitarian concept.

    A soul is, according to Gen 2:7… a body made from the dust of the earth with the breath of life in him, and that is what constitutes a “Living Soul”. Nothing more, nothing less.

    Many have added a lot to that, especially trinitarians and those who preach a soul is still alive after it dies, pagan mystery religious ideas has deeply effected some peoples minds.

    Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene

    #831706
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,

    Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

    Cease your slander.

     

    #831708
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    Not trinitarian nonsense but scriptural truth

    1thess.5.23

    Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely and may your spirit, soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus. Faithful is He who calls you and He will also bring it to pass.

     

    #831710
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Ed and t8,

    You think the Spirit of Christ is the spirit of the man, Jesus?

    Then what was his human spirit doing in the prophets?

    1Peter 1.10

    As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He prediction cited the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

     

    The Holy Spirit of anointing was in the anointed men of God.

    #831712
     NickHassan 
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    Hi TC,

    I do not read long treatises written by theological experts so if you can tell us yourself from scripture it would be better.

    We do not follow theologians and they will not be there to help us when we meet the Lord.

    Be brave, seek and find truth for yourself I suggest.

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