Are the sons of God the angels?

This topic contains 170 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 2 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #819398
     Jael 
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    Jodi and t8, why are you two arguing over a random meandering of some guy who (as both of you point out) is clearly missing ‘a few sandwiches short of a picnic’!

    #819399
     Jael 
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    Sorry, I meant, ‘Can I ask why…….’.

    #819400
     Jodi 
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    Well it is good I think to see what the other side puts forth as evidence to support their belief, it usually draws me to learn more.

    I was thinking a little further on a few of this dude’s claims. He had said the wicked men had wanted to have sexual relations with the angels and I argued that in the scripture it appears that only Lot identified them as angels, the wicked men called them men. I wanted to add that if they did in fact know they were angels, they would have also had to assume they were fallen angels, but if they were fallen angels they wouldn’t have had to have been so persistent, beating on Lots door, now would they? If they were fallen angels these angels would have gladly taken them up on it, I’d imagine. However if they thought in fact they were righteous angels they would have ran for their lives, lol!! So I think its safe to go with the text where it shows only that they understood them to be men!!

    Another thing on what he said in regards to strange flesh in Jude, is that it had to have meant angels. This actually seems to go against one of his own points that he makes. He said the angels change into human fleshy bodies and therefore come to have all the desires of the flesh. If the angels turned themselves into men, then those going after strange flesh wouldn’t apply to them, now would it? As strange should be considered “other” or “another” type of flesh as he points out. The belief by this guy is the fallen angels turn themselves into human flesh, so that wouldn’t be another kind of flesh really. The scripture has to be talking about beastiality.

    #819401
     Jael 
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    Jodi, it is certain that the Angels appeared in the guise of human beings. Where the scriptures states them as Angels it is only to ‘remind’ or ‘inform’ the reader that these were not creatures of mankind.

    And there is no way they were fallen Angels (I struggle to understand how you came to even imagine that as a point of thought!!). The Angels came to ‘SAVE’ Lot from the immorality of the goings on in S&G. Fallen Angels would not have ‘SAVED’ Lot from the crowd ‘pressing upon him’ against the doorway – nor allowed negotiations as to where Lot was to run to for that safety. Remember (read!) that the Angels URGED Lot to come with them because ‘we cannot destroy this place until you leave’ (and it appears their timetable for doing so was very much fixed!). [Holy] Angels CANNOT FAIL in fulfilling their instructions [from God].

    And as for ‘Going After Strange Flesh’… This is simple euphemism for anything that is not natural human interaction for the purpose of possibly creating children. Of course, the term includes Oral, Anal and beastiality: anything carnal.

    Ignore this if it doesn’t apply – but doesn’t the scriptures warn us about ‘enquiringly about Angels’?

    #819402
     Jodi 
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    Sorry you have misunderstood me. I said that the dude in the video said that the wicked men wanted to have sex with angels. My argument was that they didn’t even know that they were angels, they saw them merely as men, only Lot recognized them for what they were. The point I was trying to make was even if they did in fact think they were angels, as the dude believed (NOT me), that in and of itself makes horrible sense! I’m thinking we are actually on the same page here 🙂

     

    #819403
     Jodi 
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    HI t8,

    Interesting what you said about messengers. My understanding is that when you die you sleep the sleep of death. As scripture says the dead know nothing, nor can they praise the Lord. Moses and Elijah seemed to have been awakened at times to deliver an important message though.

    Since I have been in the 3rd grade I have waited anxiously for Isaiah 11 to be fulfilled. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them….8 and the suckling child shall play on the hole of an asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice den.

    Yes its true, people will not marry or be given in marriage, aren’t those rituals and in that time specific arrangements? Eternity cannot exist without the intention God made of a woman  being specifically created as a helper for man and the two becoming one flesh, it is a glorious combination of unity designed by God. How can we possibly imagine an eternal life without the amazement and joy babies and children bring? We should not do such a thing, for our Father promised us through Isaiah that there will be babies sucking on their mothers breasts, of which would be created by the unity of two flesh becoming one.

     

    #819404
     Jael 
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    Hi Jodi, concerning the ‘dudes’ and any suggestion that even if they knew the ‘men’ we’re really Angels… NO, they would NOT have tried to have sex with them.

    I think you might misunderstand what Holy (Heavenly) Angels are!! Let me enlighten you: Angels are NOT as you might see them depicted in paintings from the medieval times – nor weeping wet drippy feminine looking softies in white flowing raiments with haloes round their heads.

    Heavenly Angels are MIGHTY IN POWER and SUPER IN INTELLIGENCE (but only use these for the glory of Almighty God). They are FIERCE IN VISION (except when they choose to show otherwise in the physical world). Have you read the story of Balaam and the donkey?)

    And even Demons are not trifling (Have you read the story of the men who tried to exorcise them when they had no authority from God?)

    No, Jodi, people of the time were ALWAYS FEARFILLED when confronted by Angels in the raw, so to speak! (Have you read Ezekiel, Zacharia, – about others such as Mary the virgin and Zacharius (John the Baptist’s Father).

    AND, the demon Angels ‘Created Bodies’ for themselves and put themselves (Spirits) in them.

    A BODY is not hard for a Spirit to create. It can be rough and crude, larger, or over powerful for the situation BUT IT IS LIFELESS….

    When Adam was created, God made the body…and it too was LIFELESS .. until ‘God blew the breath of life into his nostril’… (Note: this is not literal… It simply means that the body was given leave to breath by virtue of now having a spirit in it) ‘and he became a LIVING SOUL’.

    But only God can give breath, separately, to enliven a body: ‘God is the Father of [the] Spirits’ therefore the demons could only put THEIR OWN (themselves) in a body to enliven it – which is what they wanted anyway so they could ‘enjoy’ the carnal behaviour they saw in wicked mankind.

    Angels, of themselves, cannot procreate – which is the euphemistic ‘Given or taken in marriage’.

    Remember (or know now) that in those times and afterwards, sex except with an outright whore meant the equivalent of ‘Marriage’. The ‘joining together of two bodies (male and female) : to be WEDDED : is a MARRIAGE… Which even today is shown by the fact that two people are not lawfully considered married until they have had sexual intercourse – even with their marriage certificate….

    #819405
     Jodi 
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    Jael,

    You are not following me at all!! First let me say that I do not believe in fallen angels period. Second I am quite aware of who God’s non human messengers are, they are holy, righteous and they FOLLOW the commands and will of God.

    What I have been trying to show is that the dude, not “dudes” there is only one guy presenting in the video, that his own argument is ridiculous to begin with because I dont believe in fallen angels, and even more ridiculous because he seems to be contradicting himself. I was arguing from his point of view and showing how its absurd. I was playing out what he thinks, I am not quite sure how you missed that!! Obviously you aren’t really taking the time to read what I am saying as I never referred to any men in the bible as “dudes”, only the guy presenting the video, lol!!

    #819406
     Jodi 
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    To further clarify the dude in his youtube video thinks that the wicked men wanted to have sex with angels. I first argued that they didn’t even know they were actually angels, at least not until they were cursed by them. Yes I believe these were obviously Holy messengers of God. In the text the wicked men refer to them and inquire to Lot about them only calling them men.

    The dude in the video believes the wicked men knew they were angels and wanted to have sex with them because of that. This makes no sense because the wicked men had to have thought then that they were fallen angels, but if that were the case why would they be with Lot and not prancing around town gladly willing to have sex. If they thought on the other hand they were righteous angels they would be pretty dumb to think they would actually get to have sex with them. They would have been afraid of the angels. So no matter what angle you look at, this dude’s belief is just purely stupid!! Looking at these angles actually makes it all the more obvious that the wicked men didn’t know they were angels.

    #819407
     t8 
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    Well, No, I do not have a verse and, yes, it is inferred.

    Your query would tend to have a suggestion that God created a specific group of ‘out of order’ spirit creatures – which would direct me to ask you, ‘Csn you point out s verse that states this – or are then you inferring?’

    My guess is that it is way far easier, and crucially, correct, to say ‘Demons are fallen Angels’ than to say, ‘Demons are explicit creations of God’.

    Qualifications:

    1) Almighty God is ‘the Father of Spirits’

    2) Satan is ‘the Father of the lie’ and ‘the destroyer’

    3) Demons are destructive Spirits

    4) Fallen angels seek to corrupt and destroy the souls of mankind.

    My only point to make is that the description of what and who demons are according to the Book of Enoch is then in no way outright unbiblical. In other words, the Bible doesn’t contradict it as you indirectly point out. The Book of Enoch states that demon spirits are the spirits of the Nephilim, the offspring of these fallen sons of God. While these sons of God were bound in chains, their offspring were allowed to roam the earth after the destruction of their flesh via the flood.

    A further point to make is it seems a bit of a stretch to say that these sons of God or angels who had access to Heaven and had great authority are now spending their time inhabiting humans (sometimes a hundred at a time) just to drive them crazy. One hell of a demotion in terms of occupation.

    #819408
     t8 
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    Jodi and t8, why are you two arguing over a random meandering of some guy who (as both of you point out) is clearly missing ‘a few sandwiches short of a picnic’!

    In order to get a balanced view, you need to hear all arguments. If I was bias and only heard what I wanted to hear, then I might still be a Trinitarian. And while I thought this was a foundational doctrine, sometimes you have to listen to that which might seem heretical. Further, I wouldn’t say we were arguing. I think we were discussing and agreeing 🙂

    #819409
     Jael 
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    Jodi, the uniting of a man and a woman…

    Read the scriptures CAREFULLY.

    You will see that ‘WO-Man’ was created FROM the ‘Man’… Many people falsely read and say that God created Man and Woman ‘separately’ TOGETHER…

    No, God made ADAM only… Then TOOK a metaphorical ‘Rib’ and FROM that ‘Rib’ created a Woman.

    This metaphorical  ‘Rib’ is nothing PHYSICAL… It means ‘TRAITS AND ATTRIBUTES’.

    Such attribute include:

    – a WOMB

    – genital and functional breasts

    – vanity

    – Estogen for hair and softness of skin fueled by lack of testosterone (retained in the man)

    – other stuff.

    Check out in your mind these questions:

    1) How would Adam have PROCREATED if he had chosen one of the animals as a companion. (note, this is not talking about ‘To Have Intercourse With!!)

    2) What ‘Unity’ is brought about when a man and a woman come together as a wedded pair?

    #819410
     t8 
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    Jodi, it is certain that the Angels appeared in the guise of human beings. Where the scriptures states them as Angels it is only to ‘remind’ or ‘inform’ the reader that these were not creatures of mankind.

    Guise or do they have the ability to appear in physical form. It says we will be like the angels and Moses and Elijah probably appeared like angels with Jesus. My point is that we are physical beings and will inherit a body like Jesus and be like the angels. We will live on the new Earth too, and will we appear as physical beings? Not disagreeing but putting some ideas forward. I think this is a fascinating subject, i.e., the body and the resurrection body.

    #819411
     t8 
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    • Topics started 875
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    HI t8,

    Interesting what you said about messengers. My understanding is that when you die you sleep the sleep of death. As scripture says the dead know nothing, nor can they praise the Lord. Moses and Elijah seemed to have been awakened at times to deliver an important message though.

    The first fruits? It seems they may have been given their resurrection bodies already.

    At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…

     

    #819412
     Jael 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 226

    t8, and my point is that it is absolutely clear that the guy is talking untowards the truth …so why continue to discuss the falsity of his presentation when he cannot respond to explain. There are enough critically false claims to absolutely dismiss his video commentary.

    Discussing at length (too lengthy) a false claim is to be giving a testament to that falsity. It is not like a respondent in a forum who can attempt to justify himself – it’s just one of thousands of ‘home brewed, I’m a Jesus Christ – listen to me’ videos.

    Tell me then, what did you and Jodi learn from this rubbish video? That some guy thinks the men in Sodom wanted to have sex with demon Angels?

    Oh dear, it doesn’t sound true…does it… I mean, it couldn’t be true, could it? I mean, the men didn’t know they were heavenly Angels because Jude said they were men? But Genesis says they were Angels – so who is right?…….

    You see, a discussion about a false belief has been created and given life in this thread. WE KNOW the visitors were ANGELS IN THE GIUSE OF HUMAN MALES (Angels are never seen as Female!!!) so it is pointless discussing about a video where one person presents falsity in attempting to declare what is not even minutely credulous.

    I see the thread tentatively attempting to justify the video in a ‘Could it be that…’ manner. This is how some false teaching arise when doubt and wonder is impressed on a truth and falsity is brought in to help smooth a way to an answer:

    ‘I have a car that is a 57 Chevvy but I saw a utubes video where a man had a same car but he said it was a Pontiac… He said (…more nonsense…) so now I’m not sure. All my car documents say I have a Chevvy – and the guy next door has a car that looks like mine and he says his is a Chevy. Is he wrong? The guy in the video, he is wrong, isn’t he? Isn’t he? Or….!)

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