Are the sons of God the angels?

This topic contains 170 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 5 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #819328
     t8 
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    Well that video was very good. Better than I could have hoped for. It puts the final nail into the coffin of the Sethite View.

    #819384
     Jodi 
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    Hi t8,

    I’ve only watched the very beginning of the video and just from that I am confused by why you think it’s good?

    What we know is that Enoch and Noah followed God, who cares if they were descendants of Seth? What we know is Abraham followed God and Caanan followed idolatry, who cares they were both descendants of Noah?

    Yes a righteous person can have offspring where some are good while others are evil. Even within my own two children I can recognize between the two that one tends to be more mischievous than the other.

    What we know is that in Genesis 24 Abraham on his death bed did not want his servant to find for his son Isaac a Caananite daughter for a wife because Abraham feared his son would turn to idolatry.

    What we know is that Israel was not suppose to intermarry for the same reason and this was a problem for them of which brought cursing, luckily nothing as bad as a massive flood!! I guess it’s not actually luck, but a promise God made to mankind.

    What we know is that the title Sons of God represents righteousness and could not be attributed to anything that represents already fallen.

    What we know is that humans are called children of God and Sons of God. We also know that marrying the wrong person can bring you down the wrong path, and that man’s enmitity is his carnal nature of which includes a weak lustful flesh. The daughters in Genesis 6 were indeed beautiful!!!!!!!!

    Where in the OT do we have one example of a rebellious spirit being messenger? Please give me a scripture!

     

    #819385
     Jael 
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    Hi Jodi,

    From what I just read of that which you write, I think you are a little confused or have been misled.

    The definition of ‘Son(s) of God’ is ‘One (Those) or follow the Holy Spirit’, ‘… Who do the works of God’.

    It is ok to substitute ‘Father’ for ‘God’ in the above definition as required.

    The holy angels ARE ‘Sons of God’.

    When they fell they were removed from the Sonship.

    They are now called ‘Demons’ (from ‘Demonic’) to reflect their destructive behaviour and influence in the physical world.

    No one says or is saying or should say that Demons are Sons of God except in extension:’Fallen Son of God’.

    Jesus called the many of the Jews ‘Sons of Satan’ – why was that? What does the scriptures say about that?

    Satan is a Spirit entity, yet Jesus called these flesh and blood Humans, ‘Sons’ of a fallen spirit entity.

    Yet we know that Humans can be forgiven from their bad ways and wronful thinking – Why? Because they are GREATER Sons of God than Angels. Greater, in that Humans are made ‘In the Image of God’, whereas Angels are not.

    Fallen Angels CANNOT be forgiven and must remain fallen until their DESTRUCTION at an appointed time by God.

    Until that appointed time they remain in metaphorical Chains in Spiritual Darkness, serving as deterents to others who might think of rebelling.

    #819386
     t8 
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    I’ve only watched the very beginning of the video and just from that I am confused by why you think it’s good?

    You really expect me to answer this question with a straight face?

    #819387
     t8 
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    Hi Jodi,

    From what I just read of that which you write, I think you are a little confused or have been misled.

    The definition of ‘Son(s) of God’ is ‘One (Those) or follow the Holy Spirit’, ‘… Who do the works of God’.

    It is ok to substitute ‘Father’ for ‘God’ in the above definition as required.

    The holy angels ARE ‘Sons of God’.

    When they fell they were removed from the Sonship.

    Agreed. +1.

    #819388
     t8 
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    They are now called ‘Demons’ (from ‘Demonic’) to reflect their destructive behaviour and influence in the physical world.

    Do you have a verse, or is this inferred?

    #819389
     t8 
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    Yet we know that Humans can be forgiven from their bad ways and wronful thinking – Why? Because they are GREATER Sons of God than Angels. Greater, in that Humans are made ‘In the Image of God’, whereas Angels are not.

    Scripture teaches us why angels cannot be forgiven like men can be. The scripture I quote explains it well.

    It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age — and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.…

    In other words, angels have tasted of the Kingdom of God and some still rejected God in spite of living in the blissful presence of God. How can you be forgiven if you have tasted of the kingdom. If you reject that , then what else is there for you?

    On the other hand, most humans have not experienced the Kingdom to that degree and many have not seen at all and yet have believed. They are blessed. But a human who has tasted and then decides to fall away and reject God, well what excuse do they have? Certainly not ignorance. Angels cannot plead ignorance, but most humans can. I know for a fact that most people I know that dislike God, it is not really because they dislike him, but that they dislike religion. I am willing to be bet that if they were shown heaven and how beautiful God was and how full of love he was, they would change their mind. But some are too foolish to even give God a chance.

    #819390
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
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    Hi t8,

    Yah I apologize, that was a VERY idiotic question on my part and I am feeling quite dumb and like a jerk! I’m sorry.  What I should have simply said was that I don’t agree with the Sethite view that Seth’s descendants were all righteous and would have been considered Sons of God and all of Cain’ s descendants were evil. I will watch the whole video and see what he says as to his proof they were fallen angels, before I respond again.

    #819391
     Jael 
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    Please remember that ‘Father’ means, ‘He that brings forth [that which formerly was not]’.

    Did God ‘bring forth the Angels’?

    And do not forget that a ‘Son’ is ‘He who does the Will of the Father’.

    Do [Holy] Angels ‘do the Will of the Father’?

    And is not the definition of ‘God’, ‘He (or That) which is Supreme, Rules, Reigns, Sustains, above all [in context]’

    Is the Father, ‘God’? (For clarity, I am referring to our Christian, and the same Jewish, God – ‘YHWH’ by name)

    By default, then, ‘Father’ is ‘God’ and ‘God’ is ‘Father’…that is: ‘YHWH, Father of Spirits, creator (Recursively, ‘Father’!)

    With these premises, are [Holy] Angels ‘Sons of God’?

    If a ‘Son’ fails to do the Will of his Father, is he still a ‘Son’?

    Unto the wicked, he would say, ‘Depart from me, Ye doers of iniquity, thou art no longer my Sons – I know Ye not!’

    But unto the holy, it is said, ‘The Father loves his Son and shows him all that he doeth, and the Son doeth the Will of his Father’

    #819392
     t8 
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    Thanks Jodi and Jael.

    I watched a video just now with an opposing view. I have to say it doesn’t start well for me. He seems to believe a whole host of stuff that I do not agree with and uses verses out of context. For example, he appears to believe there are scriptures that say clearly that Jesus is God and Hell is eternal punishment. Regardless, I gave this guy a chance to explain his view that the sons of God are not angels, rather men. Again I think he failed. But you can make your own mind up if you decide to watch it.

    #819393
     Jael 
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    • Topics started 6
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    For me, there’s not much store put by in a video/utube of someone spouting their view over anything someone writes in, say, a Blog, webpage or forum.

    Its all, ‘Their opinion’!

    The good hope is that such persons MIGHT have done better research or received greater revelation (Greater?) concerning the scriptures (From whom does limited and possibly misleading revelation come?)

    As can be discerned from what t8 said, even those who appear to somehow show a truth will also show great lapses and falsities… The unwary will believe BORT the truth AND THE FALSITIES!!!

    As I have said before (maybe not only here):

    “The BEST LIE consists of 95% truth…..!”

    #819394
     Jodi 
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    • Topics started 6
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    Hi t8,

    I’m just going to go through my notes from watching the video.

    The dude brings up Jude 1 and identifies that the strange flesh couldn’t mean homosexuality as strange means other or another, he then uses that to say they had to be angels. What he forgets or just doesn’t know is that there are 4 verses in the bible that forbids beastiality. It is horrible, unnatural, perverse, it defiles and is an abominable sin, resulting in the punishment of death. It is mentioned in Deut 27:21 and when you get to Deut 29 you see the warning not to follow as Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude is speaking of beastiality not sex with angels. The dude tries to use this to support that the men approaching Lot wanted to have sex with Angels. Nope, I really dont think so! The angels looked just like men, Lot recognized them as angels, however the wicked men only identifies them as MEN.

    He explains 2 Peter and Jude identifying that its referring to fallen angels. As I have mentioned before I think it is far more biblically sound to identify them with the prophets mentioned in Jeremiah 23, where we see God’s prophets of being kicked out of God’s abode and punished into darkness, we also see in Jeremiah their fate is also compared with that of Sodom and Gomorrah. As you continue to read the rest of Jude it supports my stance all the more as he talks specifically about men and what draws a man to sin.

    The dude says, “clearly the union caused the corruption of the flesh.” This goes against what Jude attributes it to, and is contrary to scripture throughout the bible. In the NT we see warning not to follow the ways of Cain. He was a devil- slanderer and murderer. There are ample scriptures that talk about man’s corruption, none of them even hint at being the cause of fallen angels having sex with humans.

    He talks about Genesis 4:26 and he does bring up its incorrect translation. It should read, “At this time they profaned in the name of YHWH.” So what we see is in fact that corruption, not just what Adam brought into the world, or Cain, but also men began to even defile God’s name before we reach Genesis 6. He brings up the scripture that says God did not make his name known unto Abraham, Isaac or Jacob, well okay. Obviously in Genesis 4 His name was known. Lev 19:12 “you shall not profane the name of the Lord.” You have to know his name if you are going to begin to profane it, which is said to occur in Genesis 4. His point is to say the text doesn’t support that people at that time worshiped in His name. Enoch walked faithfully with God and God’s name was known clearly at that time. If some men are profaning His name I would think Enoch was surely worship God with it.

    Yes all people during the time of Genesis 6 can most certainly be considered the sons of Adam. Those that are led by the Spirit are Sons of God, sounds like Enoch was certainly led by the Spirit. He talks about Jesus being begotten by God. Scripture clearly states in several places that Jesus was begotton of the seed of David according to the FLESH  and DECLARED to be the Son of God with power according TO the spirit of holiness BY the resurrection of the dead. David’s seed, God according to His promise, raised unto Israel a Saviour. We also read that Jesus learned obedience by what he suffered and being MADE perfect he became the author of salvation. We have the first Adam and the second Adam, the clear difference between the two in 1 Corinthians 15 is that the man Jesus inherited imortality, having become heavenly. I don’t think this dude knows what the word Christ represents, which is anointed. Jesus was the prophesied man who would be anointed. Jesus represents Christ as the man anointed with God’s Holy Spirit. We shall be Sons of God being Sons of the resurrection.

    He brings up 1 Corinthians 10 and doesn’t have a clue as to what it represents, this has got to be one of the most reaching points he tries to make. Woman ought to have a symbol on their head because of angels. Who are these angels? He wants them to be evil angels and they are nothing but the sort!! They are the angels that are present delivering unto righteous woman prophecy and delivering their prayers!! They are righteous angels and he’s trying to turn them into evil ones in order to fit his doctrine. 🙁

     

     

     

    #819395
     t8 
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    The dude brings up Jude 1 and identifies that the strange flesh couldn’t mean homosexuality as strange means other or another, he then uses that to say they had to be angels. What he forgets or just doesn’t know is that there are 4 verses in the bible that forbids beastiality. It is horrible, unnatural, perverse, it defiles and is an abominable sin, resulting in the punishment of death. It is mentioned in Deut 27:21 and when you get to Deut 29 you see the warning not to follow as Sodom and Gomorrah. Jude is speaking of beastiality not sex with angels. The dude tries to use this to support that the men approaching Lot wanted to have sex with Angels. Nope, I really dont think so! The angels looked just like men, Lot recognized them as angels, however the wicked men only identifies them as MEN.

    Well whether that is the case or not, I don’t see this point as crucial in the case he makes. But are you saying that Sodom was judged because of beastiality? If so, how do you arrive at that conclusion.

    As an aside, men and angels are often interchanged. That might be because angel can mean messenger and men can be messengers. Note the men/angels that were at Jesus tomb and rolled away the stone. Which was it?

    Matthew 28:2
    There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it.

    Mark 16:5-6
    But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.

    Luke 24:2-5
    They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.  In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead?

    John 20:12
    and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

    Some think angels can take physical form like men. Others think that they could be the firstfruits from among men. Like Moses and Elijah to appeared next to Jesus in glorified form. Perhaps Moses and Elijah if they came to Earth to walk amongst us, would look like men.

    Regardless, we are said to become like the angels.

    When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

    #819396
     t8 
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    The dude says, “clearly the union caused the corruption of the flesh.” This goes against what Jude attributes it to, and is contrary to scripture throughout the bible. In the NT we see warning not to follow the ways of Cain. He was a devil- slanderer and murderer. There are ample scriptures that talk about man’s corruption, none of them even hint at being the cause of fallen angels having sex with humans.

    Going by memory here. Noah was:

    1. Righteous
    2. Without blemish.

    The latter word blemish/blameless is mentioned other times in scripture and often in context of genetics. ‘A lamb without blemish’. However, I can understand that it might be used as of a person’s character. If this was the case, why does it need to be mentioned as I would have thought ‘righteous’ would have covered that meaning. A bit like saying, tall and high. e.g., that building is tall and high. Or that person is small and tiny. I admit though that this might be the application.

    #819397
     Jael 
    Participant
    • Topics started 6
    • Total replies 229

    t8, you asked ,

    “They are now called ‘Demons’ (from ‘Demonic’) to reflect their destructive behaviour and influence in the physical world.
    Do you have a verse, or is this inferred?

    Well, No, I do not have a verse and, yes, it is inferred.

    Your query would tend to have a suggestion that God created a specific group of ‘out of order’ spirit creatures – which would direct me to ask you, ‘Csn you point out s verse that states this – or are then you inferring?’

    My guess is that it is way far easier, and crucially, correct, to say ‘Demons are fallen Angels’ than to say, ‘Demons are explicit creations of God’.

    Qualifications:

    1) Almighty God is ‘the Father of Spirits’

    2) Satan is ‘the Father of the lie’ and ‘the destroyer’

    3) Demons are destructive Spirits

    4) Fallen angels seek to corrupt and destroy the souls of mankind.

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