Are the sons of God the angels?

This topic contains 170 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 4 days, 14 hours ago.

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  • #819224
     t8 
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    I have some questions about the book of Enoch, if the fallen angels are in chains reserved in darkness than how are they influencing the world?

    2 Peter 2:4
    For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

    I read this on Biblehub and not sure it is relevant, but might provide a bit of a backdrop.

    Cast them down to hell.—The Greek word occurs nowhere else, but its meaning is plain—to cast down to Tartarus; and though “Tartarus” occurs neither in the Old nor in the New Testament, it probably is the same as Gehenna. (See Note on Matthew 5:22.)

    Into chains of darkness.—Critical reasons seem to require us to substitute dens, or caves, for “chains.” The Greek words for “chains” and for “caves” here are almost exactly alike; and “caves” may have been altered into “chains” in order to bring this passage into closer harmony with Jude 1:6, although the word used by St. Jude for “chains” is different. (See Note there.) If “chains of darkness” be retained, comp. Wisdom Of Solomon 17:17. There still remains the doubt whether “into chains of darkness” should go with “delivered” or with “cast down into hell.” The former arrangement seems the better.

    Jude 1:6
    And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling–these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

    The Bible doesn’t have much to say on this subject and makes a few quotes that kind of seem out of place. Perhaps because the quotes are from the Book of Enoch. If so, then the Book of Enoch says that the angels were chained or trapped in the nether parts of the world, and it is their offspring, the Nephilim who are influencing people as demons. They lost their bodies during the flood and for which purpose the old world was destroyed in such a violent way. Flesh had become corrupted and Noah found favor as he was without blemish and was righteous.

    #819225
     t8 
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    t8, since the book of Enoch is not in the holy scriptures that we can all share the readings and interpretations together, I think it is nappropriate to bring any supposed testament or validity to the table on this book.

    Your argument is not with me then because I never wrote the New Testament and consequently didn’t quote from this book in the scripture. Further, by what evidence do you say that the only books that are scripture or inspired are 66 books, then that seems like a man-made teaching to me.

    Scripture makes no such list as to what is scripture and what is not. It was in latter times that the Bible was compiled and some bibles included this book and others that. It eventually became 66 books although I think some denominations have more than that. Christians in Ethiopia where the Book was first discovered considered it scripture and we must remember the words of Enoch, that the book was for a far off generation.

    History shows us that the book was lost and it was during the Reformation that a hunt for this book ensued. When it was finally rediscovered, you could say that it was a far off generation that got access to this book.

    Ironically, it talks a lot about the son of God, more so than the Old Testament itself. I wouldn’t be so quick to write this book off simply because you find it not in your bible. Perhaps read about how these 66 books became canon and you will find what a fickle journey that led to this. And I am open minded as to other books as being scripture. I have read some of the books written by the next generation of apostles (Church fathers) and find them as inspiring. Of course as time went on, corruption set in, so I cannot give you an exact line as to what is inspired and what is not.

    As for inspired, people think this means automatic writing. Not so. I can inspired to write a song. David was inspired to write Psalms.  Prophecy is a message delivered from God. All are inspired. That which is not inspired comes from man’s own spirit. There is no complete guide as to what is inspired and what is not.

    #819226
     t8 
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    These original sons of God were classed as ‘Holy Angels’ but their defection has déclassé them now as ‘Demonic Angels’.

    Maybe, maybe not. It does seem a bit of a stretch to say that an angel who could travel to Earth and Heaven and have authority over this and that, would then become a lowly demon of lust. Seems more like their offspring who knew not heaven and knew not certain heavenly knowledge first hand. Does scripture actually say anywhere that angels became demon spirits like those who were in that possessed man who lived in the graveyard. Hard to believe that 100 heavenly angels who fell would dwell in a a single man who was created lower than the angels and spend their time torturing his soul and getting him to cut himself.

    Of course most believe that demons are fallen angels. But does it say that anywhere in scripture?

    #819229
     Jodi 
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    t8

    When Jesus said Gehenna he was speaking of the city dump where garbage turned to ash. Reserved in chains could represent the second resurrection of those who wait judgment!

    Once again, angel means messenger which ALSO does clearly represent human beings!! To render the text of both Jude and Peter as angels representing human messengers makes absolute sense, especially if the message was being given to Jews who were quite familiar  with the stories of the prophets who sinned in Jeremiah.

    I like to frame my understanding of the NT through non pagan Jewish or Israelite eyes based on OT scripture. The Book of Enoch IMO is the purest and obvious form of paganism that has undoubtedly creeped in.

    #819230
     Jodi 
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    t8

    I have spoken quite clearly about how it was pagan converts who chose the books of the bible and even destroyed original transcripts,they also exiled or murdered opposers. I have never once said that all the books chosen must be inspired by God and be understood as truth. I also have never once said that books outside of the bible must automatically be considered false teachings! What I have said is that the book of Enoch creates a belief that is against YHWH and the clear scriptures of the OT.

    Who is YHWH?

    He ALONE exists with Powers! He ALONE brings blessings and cursing. He makes the deaf, mute, blind, the rich and the poor, even the MAD/insane. He sets men up on high in the HEAVENS and casts them down when they become vein, self righteous and abuse their powers. Scripture even directly says He CASTS EVIL SPIRITS onto man as He did with Saul and God made David able to heal him through music. The text says the “evil spirit” God cast “left him”.

    The pagans believed in false gods and their daimones. These demons brought curses AND blessings. The Romans, Greeks.. etc believed their gods had spirits that cast out evil and goodness. Read what the great influencer Plato taught on this subject!!.. and Socrates.

    Jesus rebukes an unclean spirit and commands the spirit to come out.  “you deaf and mute spirit, I command you come out of him.”

    Jesus rebuked many evil spirits/demons. I will not understand this to mean something as If I were a disciple of Plato or a Hellenistic Jew!!! I will understand it by the definition of YHWH and who He says He is and by the Powers He ALONE says He has!

    Jesus was accused by the pharisees of casting out demons through the ruler of the demons, beelzebul. Beelzebul was a false god!! We are told that these gods do not walk, do not talk, they have no power and it is God ALONE men should fear. These gods and their evil spirits are from the imagination of men.  Jesus was in fact casting out evil spirits by the ruler of the evil spirits, of which is the true God.

    t8 show me a scripture in the OT or the NT where the adversary is said to be a fallen angel.

    Jesus calls Peter Satan because his heart is of man!

    Paul tells us that if we are controlled by our sinful nature we will die. The power that death holds is our sinful nature!

    Heb 2:14 tells us that by Christ’s death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, –that is the devil.

    Just as Peter was Satan/adversary for following his sinful nature, any man who does likewise is the devil! Man’s weak flesh does not come from fallen angels. Scripture repeatedly says men sin from fleshy desires, ignorance and blindness.

    #819231
     Jael 
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    Hi Jodi,

    You speak with a passion that you hope is towards truth of the scriptures and you make many valid points in that vein.

    However, you seem confused about the aspect of Demons, false gods, Satan and Devil.

    Demons, is the word that pertains to a Fallen Angel.

    Satan, is the word that pertains to an Opposer of a Truth.

    Devil, is a word that pertains to an Adversary of a truth  speaker or doer.

    Satan and Devil often are applied to the highest fallen angel with the addition of the definitive ‘The’ to declare ‘him’ as ‘The Father’ (Creator, bringer into being, leader…) of these aspects.

    Thus, we say, ‘Satan’ as meaning the Opposer to our God’s rule but really mean ‘THE Satan’ -,but we say ‘THE Devil’ pointing to the same Spirit, thus wrongfully personifying the word ‘Satan’ to one Being.

    The outcome of this is that any reference to ‘Satan’ in daily view is only applies to ‘him’ when in fact it applies to ANYONE who opposes goodness and truth. Of course, this can be readdressed by the addition of the indefinite ‘A’ or ‘An’ to make ‘A Satan’ – since we normally say, ‘A devil’ (‘You are a devil’ but not ‘You are a Satan’) this latter (Devil) is not such a problem.

    False God, is, more of a problem… The word ‘God’ is almost ALWAYS WRONGFULLY USED in view of a spirit person. IT JUST MEANS ‘Supreme Power, Mighty Leader’, ‘Highest in order’, and similar.

    The scriptures are CLEAR that there are MANY who are CALLED GOD(s), there are MANY SUPREME LEADERS AND MIGHTY MEN. Jesus, himself quoted to the Jews that THEIR GOD (YHWH) called those who received (and presumably carried out) YHWH’s words, ‘GODS’. Even ‘The Satan’ is called ‘[The] God of this system of things’ (Negative elements of human society).

    The term ‘FALSE GOD’ is properly given to an inanimate object or subject of worship or reverend adoration. ‘Idols’, is another word meaning the same thing. I don’t think I have read anywhere in scriptures where a Spirit Being or a human person is spoken of as a ‘FALSE GOD’ (Show me, if you believe there is).

    What has occurred, is that the word, ‘God’ is applied BY JEWS AND CHRISTIANS, etc, as meaning ‘THEIR GOD whose name is Yahweh’. Seeing that we/they have only ONE SUPREME BEING, ‘For us there is only [The] one God…’, we can quite rightly discard the definitives (‘The’and ‘Our’) and say only ‘God’ and it is known of whom it is spoken.

    Additionally, because of the personifying of the word ‘God’ to the only deity of the Jews, the majority of  readers of the scriptures now incorrectly entwine the terms ‘False God’ (inanimate objects) and ‘Human Mighty Leaders’ called ‘Gods’. It is a FACT that virtually all religious belief systems have a, or more likely, many, ‘Supreme Leaders’ called ‘God’ or ‘Gods’.

    For us to say that these ‘Gods’ we’re all ‘FALSE GODS’ is to fail to understand the term ‘prejudicial view’.

    The Apostole quite rightly wrote: ‘Though there are many who are called gods – FOR US there is only one God’ (paraphrased).

    ‘False Gods’ pertaining to human leaders is a wrongful title. Mighty humans and the spirit being called [The]Satan, for instance, most certainly have or had mighty powers but, of course, time and events have proved that these are not as mighty as the powers of OUR GOD.

    #819235
     t8 
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    I like to frame my understanding of the NT through non pagan Jewish or Israelite eyes based on OT scripture. The Book of Enoch IMO is the purest and obvious form of paganism that has undoubtedly creeped in.

    My view is that it has not crept in but is largely ignored by most mainstream Christianity. The fact that the book is old, was lost, and then found near the end of time fits with the opening verses that the book was written “not for this generation, but for a remote one which is for to come”.

    For these reasons and others such as being quoted by Biblical writers, it is worthy of investigation for me and as such, may explain some accounts we see in the Bible.

    If these books are legit, then it is the only account we have that survived the flood that I am aware of. It would be a window into the Antediluvian Age which would be unique. Further, this age would by all accounts be strange to us, even if the end times would mirror the days of Noah. Just think, if you were Noah, would you take your great grandfather’s writings with you on the ark. And if not, then how to do these later biblical writers know of the words of Enoch. Explain that.

    #819236
     t8 
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    Just for reference, I have lifted this from Wikipedia.

    Book of Enoch references in the New Testament

    Enoch is referred to as a historical person and prophet, and quoted, in Jude 1:14–15:
    And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convict all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Compare this with Enoch 1:9, translated from the Ethiopic (found also in Qumran scroll 4Q204=4QEnochc ar, col I 16–18):
    And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His Saints To execute judgment upon all, And to destroy all the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

    Compare this also with what may be the original source of 1 En 1:9 in Deuteronomy 33:2:
    The Lord came from Sinai and dawned from Seir upon us; he shone forth from Mount Paran; he came from the ten thousands of Saints, with flaming fire at his right hand.

    Under the heading of canonicity, it is not enough to merely demonstrate that something is quoted. Instead, it is necessary to demonstrate the nature of the quotation. In the case of the Jude 1:14 quotation of 1 Enoch 1:9, it would be difficult to argue that Jude does not quote Enoch as an historical prophet since he cites Enoch by name. However, there remains a question as to whether the author of Jude attributed the quotation believing the source to be the historical Enoch before the flood or a midrash of Deut 33:2–3. The Greek text might seem unusual in stating that “Enoch the Seventh from Adam” prophesied “to” (dative case) not “of” (genitive case) the men, however, this might indicate the Greek meaning “against them” – the dative τούτοις as a dativus incommodi (dative of disadvantage).

    Peter H. Davids points to Dead Sea Scrolls evidence but leaves it open as to whether Jude viewed 1 Enoch as canon, deuterocanon, or otherwise: “Did Jude, then, consider this scripture to be like Genesis or Isaiah? Certainly he did consider it authoritative, a true word from God. We cannot tell whether he ranked it alongside other prophetic books such as Isaiah and Jeremiah. What we do know is, first, that other Jewish groups, most notably those living in Qumran near the Dead Sea, also used and valued 1 Enoch, but we do not find it grouped with the scriptural scrolls.”

    The attribution “Enoch the Seventh from Adam” is apparently itself a section heading taken from 1 Enoch (1 En 60:8, Jude 1:14a) and not from Genesis.
    Also, it has been alleged that 1 Peter, (in 1Peter 3:19–20) and 2 Peter (in 2Peter 2:4–5) make reference to some Enochian material.
    Reception.

    The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4) and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian, who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ. However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an “apocryphal” work.

    Ethiopic Orthodox Church

    This subsection contains Ethiopic text. Without proper rendering support, you may see question marks, boxes, or other symbols instead of Ethiopic characters.
    The traditional belief of the Ethiopic Orthodox Church, which sees 1 Enoch as an inspired document, is that the Ethiopic text is the original one, written by Enoch himself. They believe that the following opening sentence of Enoch is the first and oldest sentence written in any human language, since Enoch was the first to write letters:

    “ቃለ፡ በረከት፡ ዘሄኖክ፡ ዘከመ፡ ባረከ፡ ኅሩያነ፡ ወጻድቃነ፡ እለ፡ ሀለዉ፡ ይኩኑ”
    “በዕለተ፡ ምንዳቤ፡ ለአሰስሎ፡ ኵሉ፡ እኩያን፡ ወረሲዓን።”
    “Qāla barakat za-Hēnōk za-kama bāraka ḫərūyāna wa-ṣādəqāna ‘əlla hallawu yəkūnū ba-ʿəlata məndābē la-‘asassəlō kʷəllū ‘əkūyān wa-rasīʿān”
    “Word of blessing of Henok, wherewith he blessed the chosen and righteous who would be alive in the day of tribulation for the removal of all wrongdoers and backsliders.”

    #819237
     t8 
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    I have spoken quite clearly about how it was pagan converts who chose the books of the bible and even destroyed original transcripts,they also exiled or murdered opposers. I have never once said that all the books chosen must be inspired by God and be understood as truth. I also have never once said that books outside of the bible must automatically be considered false teachings! What I have said is that the book of Enoch creates a belief that is against YHWH and the clear scriptures of the OT.

    I never accused anyone of this. But wrote this to counter the argument that The Book of Enoch is not valid because it is not canon.

    #819238
     t8 
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    Demons, is the word that pertains to a Fallen Angel.

    This is the widely held view. Is there any scriptural evidence for this?

    Satan, is the word that pertains to an Opposer of a Truth.

    Devil, is a word that pertains to an Adversary of a truth  speaker or doer.

    Satan and Devil often are applied to the highest fallen angel with the addition of the definitive ‘The’ to declare ‘him’ as ‘The Father’ (Creator, bringer into being, leader…) of these aspects.

    Thus, we say, ‘Satan’ as meaning the Opposer to our God’s rule but really mean ‘THE Satan’ -,but we say ‘THE Devil’ pointing to the same Spirit, thus wrongfully personifying the word ‘Satan’ to one Being.

    The outcome of this is that any reference to ‘Satan’ in daily view is only applies to ‘him’ when in fact it applies to ANYONE who opposes goodness and truth. Of course, this can be readdressed by the addition of the indefinite ‘A’ or ‘An’ to make ‘A Satan’ – since we normally say, ‘A devil’ (‘You are a devil’ but not ‘You are a Satan’) this latter (Devil) is not such a problem.

    This is true. The definite article identifies. We see the same thing in John 1:1 where the Word was theos. The last instance of those lacks the definite article, but most assume it is THE God. And Word is preceded by definite article each time, and many assume that it is not THE Word, but word as in attribute or plan or other thing.

    Moving on, it is true however that The Satan is still a satan, so a satan could also imply THE Satan, although you would wonder why an author wouldn’t just say THE Satan” if they knew it to be The Devil.

    #819239
     t8 
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    One of the biblical proofs or in the least evidence to support the idea of fallen angels that were the culprits and not mere men is the many references of giants in scripture, who are their supposed offspring. Did the line of Cain produce giants and why? While there are many recurring themes in the Old Testament such as blessings and captivity depending on Israel’s status with God, there are other themes that run throughout the OT such as giants. This does seem strange as there is never a complete picture given.

    Perhaps that was not needed because of the Book of Enoch. Back in the day there was no canon, so people had these books and referred to them and some of the books quoted from other books. Perhaps the Book of Enoch was for its time and the Old Testament for that time with not much crossover. Of course both books speak about the end times, but I am talking about their recorded histories. And it seems that the NT writers quote Enoch and the Early fathers also quote from it.

    I haven’t got the time to research every passage about giants in scripture then write a short commentary on each. However, I offer you this page which I haven’t fully read and may not fully support. From what I have read so far, it makes some good points that would be worthy of discussion.

    https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/giants-in-the-old-testament/


    Introduction

    The Bible describes many individuals as giants, and it also mentions several giant people groups. Interpreters have speculated about the size of these people with guesses ranging anywhere from 6 feet to more than 30 feet in height. Also, a great deal of misinformation about biblical giants has been proliferated on the Internet along with some fake pictures of supposed giants. So did these giants really exist? If so, how big were they?

    This article surveys all of the individuals and people groups described as giants in Scripture. Next, some ancient records and archaeological data that corroborate some of the biblical data will be examined. The article concludes with a study of how big these people could have been based on what we currently understand about genetics and biology.

    Old Testament Giants

    One of the earliest mentions of giants in Scripture is found in Genesis 14.

    In the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him came and attacked the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzim in Ham, the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim, and the Horites in their mountain of Seir . . . . Then they turned back and came to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and attacked all the country of the Amalekites, and also the Amorites who dwelt in Hazezon Tamar (Genesis 14:5–7, emphasis added).

    Genesis 14 does not reveal that the Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, or Amorites were giants, but this information can be found in other places.

    The Amorites

    The Amorites are mentioned more than 80 times in Scripture, and early on, some were allied with Abraham (Genesis 14:13). They were descendants of Noah’s grandson Canaan (Genesis 10:15–16). Although the Bible does not provide this information, the Jewish general-turned-historian Josephus gives the name of their ancestor as Amorreus.1 While the Amorites are mentioned in the same contexts as other giants a few times, they are specifically described as giants in the Minor Prophets.

    Yet it was I who destroyed the Amorite before them, whose height was like the height of the cedars, and he was as strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit above and his roots beneath. Also it was I who brought you up from the land of Egypt, and led you forty years through the wilderness, to possess the land of the Amorite (Amos 2:9–10).

    Through Amos, God clearly stated that the Amorites were generally very tall and strong. Some may downplay the description of the Amorites in this passage, since these verses employ figurative language, but there are some good reasons to take this passage in a straightforward manner.2

    The idea that the Amorites were giants is supported by the report of the spies whom Moses sent through the land of Canaan. The Amorites were one of the people groups they saw (Numbers 13:29), and they claimed that “all the people whom we saw in it are men of great stature” (Numbers 13:32). It is telling that in their response, Joshua and Caleb did not challenge the size of the land’s inhabitants (Numbers 14:6–9).3

    The Emim

    Deuteronomy 2 reveals that the Emim, which likely means “terrors,” were giants:

    The Emim had dwelt there in times past, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. They were also regarded as giants [Hebrew rephaim], like the Anakim, but the Moabites call them Emim (Deuteronomy 2:10–11).

    Moses told the people that the Emim used to live in the territory that God had given to the descendants of Lot’s son Moab (Genesis 19:37).

    The Zuzim (Zamzummim)

    The Zamzummim (almost certainly the same as Zuzim in Genesis 14:5) were also called giants and listed in the same chapter as the Emim:

    [The land of Ammon] was also regarded as a land of giants [Hebrew rephaim]; giants [rephaim] formerly dwelt there. But the Ammonites call them Zamzummim, a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim. But the Lord destroyed them before them, and they dispossessed them and dwelt in their place (Deuteronomy 2:20–21).

    These verses explain that a group of giants known as Zamzummim had lived in the land of Ammon, “a land of giants.” God destroyed the Zamzummim so that the descendants of Lot’s son Ben-Ammi (the Ammonites) could live in the land (Genesis 19:38).4

    According to Genesis 14:5, the Zuzim were in the land of Ham. This may be in reference to Noah’s son, Ham, since they descended from him. But it is more likely a reference to the Hamathites, who were descendants of Canaan, Ham’s son. While the Zuzim and Zamzummim may have been different people groups, there are enough similarities in name, description, and geographical location to infer that they were variant names for the same group.

    Rephaim

    The most common term used to describe giants in the Bible is rephaim (e.g., Deuteronomy 3:11, 13). It may refer to a certain people group,5 or it may be a term that simply means giants. The singular form, raphah, also appears several times (e.g., 2 Samuel 21:16, 18, 20).6

    The third chapter of Deuteronomy contains an interesting account of the victory of the Israelites over Sihon, the king of the Amorites, and Og, the king of Bashan.7 It is here that we learn an intriguing detail about Og:

    For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the giants [rephaim]. Indeed his bedstead was an iron bedstead. (Is it not in Rabbah of the people of Ammon?) Nine cubits is its length and four cubits its width, according to the standard cubit (Deuteronomy 3:11).

    Some translations use the word sarcophagus (NEB) or coffin (TEV, CEV) in place of bedstead, for the Hebrew word עֶרֶשׂ (eres). The majority of English Bibles render this term as bed or bedstead, which makes sense since eres means couch, divan, bed, or bedstead. Also, it would be indeed strange to translate it as sarcophagus since these were made of stone or marble, and Og’s “bedstead” was made of iron.8

    Whether Moses referred to Og’s bed or coffin is not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. However, the size of this object is noteworthy. We are told that it was nine cubits long and four cubits in width “according to the standard cubit.” Since the standard cubit is approximately 18 inches long, then Og’s bed or coffin was about 13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide. To put this in perspective, if stood up on end, the height of this bed would have been exactly twice as tall as a person who is 6 foot 9 inches tall. Of course, he may not have been as large as his bed. Some authors have attempted to downplay the significance of these dimensions, but the Bible clearly identifies Og as a giant.

    The Nephilim

    The earliest mention in Scripture of giants is just prior to the Flood account.

    There were giants [nephilim] on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown (Genesis 6:4).9

    The word translated as “giants” in this verse is the Hebrew word nephilim, and many Bible versions simply transliterate it as such. There has been much debate over the meaning of this word. Some believe it comes from the Hebrew verb naphal, while others claim that it is from the Aramaic noun naphil.10 These individuals are described in Hebrew as gibborim (“mighty men”).11

    The nephilim were mentioned again when the spies returned from their exploratory mission of the land of Canaan. These men reported that Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai (descendants of Anak, progenitor of the Anakim) dwelt in Hebron. They also stated, “the people who dwell in the land are strong; the cities are fortified and very large; moreover we saw the descendants of Anak there” (Numbers 13:28). The chapter concludes with ten of the spies giving “a bad report” trying to convince the Israelites that they could not conquer the land:

    The land through which we have gone, in spying it out, is a land that devours its inhabitants; and all the people whom we saw in it are men of great size. There also we saw the Nephilim (the sons of Anak are part of the Nephilim); and we became like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight” (Numbers 13:32—33, NASB).12

    The Anakim

    The Anakim were mentioned in several of these passages. They were perhaps the best known of the giants dwelling in the land of Canaan at the time of the Exodus. As stated in the verse above, they were part of the nephilim. If nephilim simply refers to giants in general, then the Anakim are just said to be giants in Numbers 13:33, which is consistent with their description in this passage. So the Amorites and other giant people would also be nephilim. If nephilim refers to a particular giant tribe, then the Anakim were part of this line.

    Numbers 13:22 states that Ahiman, Sheshai, and Talmai were descendants of Anak, who was obviously the namesake of the Anakim. Both the Emim and Zamzummim were compared to the Anakim, as they were both “a people as great and numerous and tall as the Anakim” (Deuteronomy 2:10, 21; 9:2).

    Anak was the son of Arba (Joshua 15:13). Little is known about Arba, and his ancestry is not provided. However, he was apparently somewhat legendary as indicated by the parenthetical statements in the text when his name appears. The city of Hebron, where Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob settled and were buried was also called Kiriath Arba.13 We are told that “Arba was the greatest man among the Anakim” (Joshua 14:15), and “the father of Anak” (Joshua 15:13; 21:11).14 Kirjath Arba was also called “Mamre” in Genesis 35:27. Mamre was an Amorite, who was an ally of Abram (Genesis 14:13). This man owned some trees by which Abram settled, and at some point, part of Hebron became synonymous with his name.

    Joshua fought several battles with the Anakim and the Amorites. Eventually, he “cut off the Anakim from the mountains: from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, from all the mountains of Judah, and from all the mountains of Israel; Joshua utterly destroyed them with their cities. None of the Anakim were left in the land of the children of Israel; they remained only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod” (Joshua 11:21–22). These actions set the stage for the famous account of Goliath in 1 Samuel.

    Goliath

    Of course, the most renowned giant was the mighty Philistine slain by David. Here is how he is described in Scripture.

    And a champion went out from the camp of the Philistines, named Goliath, from Gath, whose height was six cubits and a span. He had a bronze helmet on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. And he had bronze armor on his legs and a bronze javelin between his shoulders. Now the staff of his spear was like a weaver’s beam, and his iron spearhead weighed six hundred shekels; and a shield-bearer went before him (1 Samuel 17:4–7).

    Notice that Goliath was from Gath, which happened to be one of the three places where Anakim remained, according to Joshua 11:21–22. So although he is not called one in 1 Samuel 17, it is possible that Goliath was a descendant of the Anakim who mixed with the Philistine population in that area.15

    There is some debate about Goliath’s height due to the textual variants in ancient manuscripts. Most English translations follow the Masoretic text in listing his height at “six cubits and a span” (approximately 9’9”). However, the NET Bible puts Goliath at “close to seven feet tall.” The reason for the discrepancy is that the Masoretic Text differs from some ancient texts, including the Septuagint and an ancient manuscript found among the Dead Sea Scrolls, labeled 4QSama, which list Goliath’s height as four cubits and a span (approximately 6’9”).

    Many modern scholars believe there is stronger textual support for the shorter Goliath.16 But while he is not specifically called a giant in this passage, 2 Samuel 21:15–22 seems to identify Goliath as the “giant” (raphah) from Gath. There are other details provided that make the “six cubits and a span” the more likely figure. For example, the sheer weight of his armaments required that he must have been of enormous size and strength. His coat of mail weighed about 125 pounds and just the tip of his spear was 15 pounds. This does not even take into account his helmet, armor on his legs, javelin, or sword.17 Also, I personally find it hard to believe that every member of Israel’s army would have been terrified of someone who was my height (6’9”).18

    There are many other details about the account of David and Goliath that are often overlooked. Most people assume David was a short young man when he fought against the giant, but the Bible is very clear that David was considered “a mighty man of valor, [and] a man of war” (1 Samuel 16:18) prior to fighting Goliath.

    Other Giants

    The Bible mentions four more Philistine giants, who were relatives of Goliath from the region of Gath. 2 Samuel 21:15–22 provides a more detailed account of these giants than the record of 1 Chronicles 20:4–8, but the latter passage does provide some extra information that helps us make sense of the passage. The additional details from 1 Chronicles are provided in brackets.

    When the Philistines were at war again with Israel, David and his servants with him went down and fought against the Philistines; and David grew faint. Then Ishbi-Benob, who was one of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose bronze spear was three hundred shekels, who was bearing a new sword, thought he could kill David. But Abishai the son of Zeruiah came to his aid, and struck the Philistine and killed him. Then the men of David swore to him, saying, “You shall go out no more with us to battle, lest you quench the lamp of Israel.”

    Now it happened afterward that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob [or “Gezer”].19 Then Sibbechai the Hushathite killed Saph [or “Sippai”], who was one of the sons of the giant. Again there was war at Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaare-Oregim [or “Jair”] the Bethlehemite killed [“Lahmi”] the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the shaft of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

    Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, who had six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot, twenty-four in number; and he also was born to the giant. So when he defied Israel, Jonathan the son of Shimea, David’s brother, killed him.

    These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David and by the hand of his servants (2 Samuel 21:15–22).

    David’s mighty men killed giants named Ishbi-Benob, Saph (Sippai), and Lahmi, as well as an unnamed giant with six fingers on each hand and six toes on each foot.20 Each of these men could have descended from the remnant of Anakim that survived in the region of Gath, Gaza, and Ashdod (Joshua 11:22).

    An Egyptian Giant?

    One of David’s mighty men, Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, defeated a large Egyptian man:

    And he killed an Egyptian, a man of great height, five cubits tall. In the Egyptian’s hand there was a spear like a weaver’s beam; and he went down to him with a staff, wrested the spear out of the Egyptian’s hand, and killed him with his own spear (1 Chronicles 11:23, italics in original).

    Although he is often considered a giant, the Bible does not specifically identify this man as one, nor does it place this account with the exploits of David’s other men who slayed giants, but it does provide his height as being “five cubits” (approximately 7’ 6”). The KJV, NKJV, NASB, ESV, and others insert the word “great” before “height” or “stature,” but “great” does not appear in the Hebrew. This may have been done for stylistic and readability purposes or because his height is provided later in the verse. Young’s Literal Translation renders this verse in an almost perfect word-for-word match of the Hebrew: “And he hath smitten the man, the Egyptian—a man of measure, five by the cubit—and in the hand of the Egyptian is a spear like a beam of weavers” (1 Chronicles 11:23, italics in original).

    In the parallel account given in 2 Samuel 23:21 the Egyptian is called “a spectacular man” in the NKJV and “an impressive man” in the NASB. While modern man may think of a 7’6” man as a giant, it is intriguing that the Bible does not identify him as such. Perhaps this is a clue that those who are identified as giants were larger than the Egyptian slain by Benaiah. Another explanation for this omission is that many of the giants were called by their particular tribes (Anakim, Emim, etc.), but the tall Egyptian is not said to belong to any of these giant groups. If that is the case, it is curious why the biblical writers would not simply use a generic term for “giant,” such as rapha.

    Following these accounts in 2 Samuel and 1 Chronicles, the giants fade from the pages of Scripture (other than the retrospective mention of the Amorites as giants in Amos 2:9).

    Extra-biblical References to Giants

    Scores of giant skeletons have been allegedly unearthed in the past couple of centuries. These claims were especially popular in the nineteenth century. So far, no concrete evidence of these claims has been brought forth. Although some claim the evidence was ignored, destroyed, or hidden by places like the Smithsonian, it seems more likely that the vast majority of these reports were hoaxes created for various reasons.

    SO FAR, NO CONCRETE EVIDENCE OF THESE CLAIMS HAS BEEN BROUGHT FORTH.

    Several websites display pictures of people standing next to or holding a giant human femur, but these bones are sculptures, allegedly replicas of a real bone found in Turkey or Greece. Once again, there are fantastic claims, but little or no hard evidence to support them.

    As far as I know, no one has discovered fossil evidence of giant humans. But then again, human fossils are quite rare altogether, since humans are more capable of avoiding rapid burial in sediment and other conditions that could lead to fossilization of their remains. What is indeed significant is that many giant versions of other creatures existed in the past or still exist today. To name just a few, these include the following:

    1. spiders (e.g., the bird-eating spider, up to 12-inch leg span)
    2. moths (e.g., the Atlas moth, with a wing span of 11 inches)
    3. centipedes (up to 13 inches long)
    4. snails (e.g., the African giant snail, up to 15½ inches long)
    5. frogs (e.g. Beelzebufo, 16 inches high)
    6. dragonflies (e.g., Meganeura, with a wing span of more than 2½ feet)
    7. rats (e.g., Josephoartigasia, with a conservatively estimated body mass of 750 pounds)
    8. beavers (e.g., Trogontherium, about 7½ feet long)
    9. scorpions (e.g., the sea scorpion Jaekelopterus, estimated at more than 8 feet long)
    10. crabs (e.g., the giant spider crab, with a claw span more than 12 feet)
    11. armadillos (e.g., Glyptodon, up to 13 feet long)
    12. turtles (e.g., Archelon, up to 16 feet long)
    13. fish (e.g., Xiphactinus, 19 feet long)
    14. sloths (e.g., Megatherium, which stood about 20 feet)
    15. worms (e.g., the giant earthworm, up to 22 feet long)
    16. sea cows (e.g., Hydrodamalis, 25 feet or more in length)
    17. crocodiles (e.g., Sarcosuchus, up to 40 feet long)
    18. snakes (e.g., Titanoboa, over 42 feet long)
    19. crustaceans (e.g., supergiant amphipods 10 times larger than those previously discovered)
    20. squid (e.g., Mesonychoteuthis, 50 feet or more in length)
    21. sharks (e.g., Rhincodon, up to 65 feet long)
    22. octopuses with 100 foot long tentacles.21

    The fact that scientists have discovered animals with body sizes far greater than those observed today suggests, at least in theory, the possibility of there having also been giant humans in the past, as recorded in the Bible.

    Many modern scholars scoff at the idea that there could have been giant warriors in excess of seven and a half feet tall. Consequently, the biblical dimensions of these people have often been downplayed or ignored. However, the biblical data about these people can be trusted because it is in the Word of God. Furthermore, other ancient sources describe giants, and the Anakim are even mentioned as dwelling in the land of Canaan.

    Egypt

    During the twelfth dynasty of ancient Egypt, traditionally dated from the twentieth to nineteenth centuries B.C.,22 the Egyptians practiced something akin to the modern use of voodoo dolls. A potter would make a clay figurine of an enemy they feared. The figurine had its arms behind its back and the name of the group or its leaders would be written upon it. Sometimes a bowl or block of clay was used for listing the enemies. The figurine or bowl was then smashed in a symbolic way of cursing the enemies so that they could be defeated.

    Archaeologists have reconstructed many of these Execration texts (also called Proscription Lists), and some very interesting details have been found concerning the Anakim. This is an example of a text which mentions them:

    The Ruler of Iy’anaq, Erum, and all the retainers who are with him; the Ruler of Iy’anaq, Abi-yamimu and all the retainers who are with him; the Ruler of Iy’anaq ‘Akirum and the retainers who are with him (emphasis added).23

    It should be noted that anaq (i.e., with a q in place of the k) is a common transliteration of the Hebrew word for Anak, עְַנָק (Numbers 13:33).

    Another Execration text places the Anakim in the land of Canaan and even mentions the city of Jerusalem.24 The ancient Egyptians also called the inhabitants of the land of Canaan “Shasu.” A later text entitled The Craft of the Scribe (c. 1250 BC), which was used to train Egyptian scribes, discusses a Canaanite mountain pass during a past battle.

    The face of the pass is dangerous with Shasu, hidden under the bushes. Some of them are 4 or 5 cubits, nose to foot, with wild faces.25

    Egyptian cubits were longer than the Hebrew common cubit. At 20.65 inches per Egyptian cubit, the Shasu mentioned in this letter would have measured between 6’10” and 8’7.” This description shows that the traditional measurement of Goliath is not as outlandish as many critics believe.

    Other Ancient Reports

    Nearly every place around the world has legends of giants dwelling in the land. Certainly, one must exercise caution when reading these stories on the Internet since so much of the information online is contrary to the Word of God. For example, a few years ago, pictures of giant skeletons started to appear on websites, but they were clearly doctored (apparently part of a graphic design contest).

    Greek and Roman mythology mentions the Titans, Kyklopes (Cyclops), and several other giants.26 Norse mythology contains stories of the Frost giants of Jötunheim. But these records are not limited to European mythologies or only to the ancient past. African and Asian peoples also have legends of giants, as do Native Americans.

    For example, in his autobiography, “Buffalo” Bill Cody wrote the following words about a legend recounted to him by members of the Sioux tribe.

    It was taught by the wise men of this tribe that the earth was originally peopled by giants, who were fully three times the size of modern men. They were so swift and powerful that they could run alongside a buffalo, take the animal under one arm, and tear off a leg, and eat it as they ran. So vainglorious were they because of their own size and strength that they denied the existence of a Creator. When it lighted, they proclaimed their superiority to the lightning; when it thundered, they laughed.

    This displeased the Great Spirit, and to rebuke their arrogance he sent a great rain upon the earth. The valleys filled with water, and the giants retreated to the hills. The water crept up the hills, and the giants sought safety on the highest mountains. Still the rain continued, the waters rose, and the giants, having no other refuge, were drowned.27

    Undoubtedly, many of these stories contain exaggerations of the giants’ prodigious height and strength. But is it reasonable to automatically reject every one of these traditions, or, like tales of dragons, is there possibly some truth behind the legends, as is often the case? It is interesting that much of giant lore includes descriptions of a flood sent by God (or the gods) to destroy these wicked people. Could it be that while the Bible contains the true history of our past, these groups are simply repeating their own distorted versions of world history prior to and perhaps after the dispersion at Babel?28

    Modern Giants

    So were all of these giants just people who developed gigantism? Although gigantism may account for some of the ancient giants, this proposed solution falls short of explaining many of the biblical accounts.

    Modern gigantism is often caused by abnormalities that lead to excessive production of growth hormone.29 It is highly unlikely that Goliath, the nephilim, Anakim, or most of the other Old Testament giants suffered from such a condition since they were often described as warriors or “mighty men,” while modern “giants” are usually awkward, uncoordinated, and endure several physical ailments. There have been some rare cases where the person could accurately be described as a “mighty man.”30

    Furthermore, modern gigantism is not hereditary, whereas the Bible often describes giants as being the offspring of other giants (e.g., Deuteronomy 9:2; 1 Chronicles 20:6). So the groups known as giants were not simply made up of individuals with the modern form of gigantism.

    How Tall Were They?

    So just how tall were the various groups of giants in Scripture? Given the discrepancy in the ancient texts about Goliath’s height, it is difficult to base our estimate on his dimensions. The Egyptian killed by Benaiah was at least 7’6” (perhaps taller if the common cubit was not being used), but he is not called a giant. The Egyptian document, The Craft of the Scribe, placed the Shasu (Anakim?) between 6’10” and 8’7”. They had to be large enough for the Israelites to claim that they looked like grasshoppers in the sight of the giants and for God to compare the height of the Amorites to cedars.

    meganeuraThere are two main lines of thought on this subject. One idea looks at the modern understanding of human growth. Our stature is primarily affected by our DNA with some influence from environmental factors, but we seem to be limited by the “square-cube” law.31 For example, let’s use my dimensions to see what would happen if I was scaled up to twice my height. This will give us a good example since I am 6’9”, and some have argued that King Og of Bashan was as tall as his bed was long (13’6”), which is exactly twice my height. So if we were to double my height, then we would also need to increase my width and depth proportionally to compensate.
    This means that, along with my height, both my width and depth would double, so we would need to multiply my weight (about 250 pounds) by a factor of eight. So a person of my proportions at 13’6” would weigh 2000 pounds! Not only is it difficult for us to imagine a person so large, but also when considering the compressive strength of bone,32 we would conclude that Og’s skeletal system would be under tremendous stress, and he would be much more likely to suffer broken bones than a normal-sized person, not to mention the dangerous stress placed on his body’s other systems.33
    The second view is based on three points mentioned above. First, would a 5’6” individual really feel like a “grasshopper” compared to someone who is 7–8 feet tall? Admittedly, this is somewhat subjective, but the contrast seems to require a taller giant. Next, as pointed out in the second footnote, there is a strong comparison of the height and strength of the Amorites to the cedar and oak trees in Amos 2:9. Third, the evidence of other creatures in the fossil record that are far greater than twice the size of their modern counterparts provides support to the idea that the limits imposed by the square-cube law may not be as strict as we imagine them to be. For example, the meganeura is an extinct dragonfly, whose wingspan was greater than 30 inches. The Wikipedia entry (Wikimedia Commons image, right) on this creature states the following:

    Controversy has prevailed as to how insects of the Carboniferous period were able to grow so large. The way oxygen is diffused through the insect’s body via its tracheal breathing system puts an upper limit on body size, which prehistoric insects seem to have well exceeded.34

    While I don’t believe in “prehistoric” creatures (since man has been on earth since Day Six, and God has revealed what happened during the first five days in a historical account), the meganeura shows that the size limits of living organisms may be greater than expected. Those holding the second view do not have a problem with the biblical giants exceeding nine feet in height.

    Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the square-cube law is accurate when applied to building materials, but it doesn’t seem to perfectly relate to biological organisms, although it probably provides some “ballpark” limits. For example, the average house cat is about 30 inches long (head to tail), 9–10 inches tall, and weighs about 11 pounds, while tigers reach 12 feet in length (head to tail), 3 feet in height, and weighs about 500 pounds.35 If we were going to estimate the weight of a 10-foot long, 3-foot tall cat using the square-cube law, based on the dimensions of the average house cat, then the numbers would not match what we see in reality. According to this rule, when we quadruple the length (2.5 feet to 10 feet), then we would need to multiply the weight by 64 (4 x 4 x 4), which means we would expect the weight to be approximately 700 pounds. This is significantly higher than the weight of a tiger of this size.36

    This example shows that tigers and house cats do not share the exact same proportions, but this is exactly the point. Both animals belong to the created cat “kind,” and the much larger varieties (lions, tigers, etc.) are not perfectly “scaled up” compared to the smaller varieties. If this were the case with giant humans, then perhaps a 13’6” Og isn’t out of the realm of possibility, but the notion that some biblical giants were 20–30 feet tall or greater is probably a “stretch.”

    Conclusion

    So which view is accurate? I honestly do not know, but the square-cube law seems to provide some upper limits, so it is unlikely that they reached 20–30 feet or more. However, I do know the Bible clearly teaches that giants existed in the past. Many of them lived in and around the land of Canaan, and Joshua was involved in several battles with them. David and his mighty men killed some Philistine giants. The Egyptians knew about the Anakim and feared them. Finally, cultures from around the world have legends that are often remarkably similar to biblical accounts, including the existence of giants.

    The biblical accounts of giants are more than just “tall” tales. These enormous people truly existed, and no amount of scoffing or rationalizing by skeptics will change that fact.

    #819243
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 5
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    Jael,

    I am not sure where to begin with you, lol!!

    Yes I am not ignorant to the fact that many are referred to as gods and what that word represents. Moses was called a god. Idols are false images that people make to represent their false gods. Pagans believed in false gods, they made images of their gods, thats a pretty simple fact. The false gods themselves have NO power, so neither do their spirits that men believed could do both good and evil. As I said, the pharasees accused Jesus of being able to cast out evel spirits by the ruler of evil spirits the false god beelzebub. Clearly the pharasees believed in the power of a false god. As I also mentioned Jesus healed just as David healed Saul from an evil spirit God cast.

    Show me ONE scripture that says fallen angels cause people to go MAD, or deaf, or mute, or sick? God says He does this, and that He alone as a result of this, men should fear. We also see that he gives power to humans to heal men from these curses. As scripture clearly states God blesses and curses.

    The devil means slandered, Satan adversary. New Testament use of these two words are directly representing men, Peter is one great example as well as in Revelation the devil is going to cast Christians in prison. The Roman emporer Nero was clearly a devil and an adversary to Christians.

    Why do men do Evil? Why did Jesus directly call Peter Satan? The bible throughout is clear on this!!!!!!! Genesis 8:21 I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth.

    Jesus says from the human heart evil intentions come, all evil comes from within. Jesus accuses Peter to have the mind of man, and not the mind of the Spirit of God. Scripture also says it is are VERY NATURE that causes us to sin. Jesus was CLEAR, there was no fallen angel possessing Peter’s mind causing him to act on his human nature.

    Fallen angels cause men to follow their own nature, excuse me but that is pure nonesense!!

    There is not ONE scripture that says fallen angels possess people and cause them to do evil. The word translated in the bible Satan means adversary, read every scripture please in the OT and show me one example where the adversary is a fallen angel who is against both man and God.

    Demons are evil spirits. Show me ONE scripture that identifies these spirits as being fallen angels.

    Jael you said fallen angels inflict us with evil spirits and men who are strong in faith can fight against them. But scripture says that men broke His commandments that they did not like to retain God in their knowledge so God gave them over to a reprobate mind. Men have lived on earth following after their own sinful flesh and are thus deserving of death. The battle is not between allowing fallen angels to possess our minds it is a battle with our own nature of which we can over come through God’s Spirit.

    In Ephesians, those who believe in Christ, are no longer children of wrath. Those who no longer fullfill the lusts of the flesh and of the mind, are men who know longer wrestle against flesh and blood. Their only adversary are those in high places that have the power to persecute them. To be CARNALLY minded is DEATH. The adversary that Jesus fought against in the wilderness and overcame was his carnal mind! Jesus did not walk after the flesh, he came out of the wilderness walking with the Spirit of God. He condemned sin in the flesh, something no other man could accomplish. The carnal mind is enmity against God. Be not like an unreasoning animal, a creature of instinct. Be not the mind of a SERPENT. The woman’s seed did most certainly overcome the enmity.

    Romans 16:18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattery speech deceive the hearts of the simple.

    Philippians 3:18 For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame- who set their minds on earthly things.

    Psalms 44:25 For bowed to the dust hath our soul, Cleaved to the earth hath our belly.

    Micah 7:17 They lick dust as a serpent as fearful things of earth, they tremble from their enclosures, of Jehovah our God they are afraid, yes, they are afraid of these.

    Ephesians 4:17….because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart… 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the Spirit of your mind.

    There is nothing in scripture that says that enmity is between us and fallen angels. God brought death and it is in our very nature that men commit sin acting on this fear, we crawl on our bellies licking dust like fearful serpents. We and other creatures have an instinct to survive it makes us unruly beasts.

    Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that By his death he might DESTROY him who holds the power of death — that is the devil.

    Once again- to be carnally minded is death!

    Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the sinful NATURE you DIE, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

    Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and DESTROYED the barrier the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself a new man out of two, thus making peace.

    The devil, which MEANS slanderer, not fallen angel,  is clearly shown in scripture to represent men who follow after their sinful NATURE!!

    Jesus destroyed him who has power over death -the old man, the weak man that serves His sinful nature!

    You are adding to scripture, devil and satan need to be defined as slanderer and adversary, then one is to put those words and understand what they represent in the context of the scriptures. Same with demons- evil spirits.

    Show me a scripture where demons, or the devil or satan, evil spirits, or slanderer or adversary is specifically denoted to an angel that has rebelled against God. You cannot claim they represent fallen angels without biblical proof. Simply trying to claim that you have the right to define them as such because you are seeing truth through spiritual eyes but I am understanding through the human mind, doesn’t work!!

     

     

    #819244
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 5
    • Total replies 817

    t8,

    I don’t refute at all that giants existed. And I don’t see how the mere fact that we have had in history very large mighty men is in anyway some sort of proof that they had to be offspring of fallen angels. We also have to this day very short “little people”, where do little people come from? ..fallen fairies mating with woman?

    In Acts it says – and hath made of one blood all the nation’s of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth and hath determined the times before appointed and the bounds of their habitation.

    Deuteronomy 3:13 and the rest of Gilead, and all Bashan, being the kingdom of Og, gave I unto the half tribe of Manasseh; all the region of Argob, with all Bashan, which was called the land of the giants.

    God sets up nation’s, He makes them fall, and all men of these nations come from the blood of Adam. The giants were men, they were called men, they were descendants of Adam!

    #819247
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 5
    • Total replies 817

    The word adversary, phonetic Hebrew saw-tawn, is used in the OT 27 times.

    The first 2 times in Numbers 22 it is used to describe an angel carrying out the will of God being an adversary to man.

    The next 6 times it is used in 1Samuel 29, 2 Samuel 19, 1 Kings 5 and 11 we read the adversary is referred to men and enemies in battle. Specifically sons of Zeruiah, the men named Hadad and Rezon.

    Then we have 1 Chronicles 21:1 the first time the word adversary is translated in some bibles to say Satan, which if TRUTH is to prevail it should SAY ADVERSARY!! We have a bigger problem however, 2 Samuel 23 has the same story and it says God told David to number his men, not an adversary. I won’t go into this problem, I will stick with the subject at hand which is up to this point we have seen both men and God, through his obedient angels, be referred to directly as a saw-tawn. We do NOT see any example where saw-tawn is a rebellious angel. To assume in 1 Chronicles the identity of the adversary is a rebellious angel is purely delusional!!!

    Job is our next example where we see again the word Satan is used, but should be properly and honestly translated as adversary. This adversary was an adversary strictly to Job and not God. This adversary followed God, was in the presence of God, and because of the curses brought onto Job, which Job recognizes as coming FROM God, Job repents. There exists no rebellious angel in the book of Job.

    Psalms 109 is our next example and the word is translated accuser and there is no sign of a rebellious angel here.

    Finally our last example of saw-tawn is in Zech 3:1-2. Where in a vision an adversary is standing against Joshua. In Zech 2 we read that God is angry with the nation’s, that God asks those of Israel living with Babylon to escape. We also know that Joshua had a human adversary who tried to stand in the way of him building a temple. What WE DO NOT see is some rebellios angel possessing Joshua’ s mind or any other shenanigans by a “fallen” angel.

    There exists NO single example in the OT that would bring the identification of an adversary to be identified as a fallen rebellious angel!

     

    #819266
     Jodi 
    Participant
    • Topics started 5
    • Total replies 817

    Jael,

    You said, “scripture says those rebel angels MADE BODIES for themselves…this is CREATION…so they put their OWN SPRIT in those bodies.”

    What scripture or scriptures say this?

    Where is scripture that says Holy angels became demonic angels?

    I have not read any scriptures that says either of these!!

Viewing 15 posts - 46 through 60 (of 171 total)

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