Are the sons of God the angels?

This topic contains 169 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  t8 3 months, 1 week ago.

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  • #819137
     t8 
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    Another video for me to watch later.

    #819139
     Jodi 
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    Who were the sons of God in Genesis?

    What do the scriptures tell us?

    To the Israelites God was to be viewed as a Father. Israelites were called the children of God and the sons of God. We see this too for Christians in the NT.

    The Israelites were forbidden according to the law of Moses to take pagan wives. They did anyway, which was one reason they were punished and put into exile. When they returned to the Promised Land they continued to corrupt their ways – Ezra 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the Holy seed have mingled themselves with people of those lands…3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonished.

    What was the fear of this mingling? The fear was that the Israelites would be corrupted by paganism.

    There is a huge problem when you define the sons of God as spirit beings. Genesis specifically refers to the offspring as MEN as FLESH, NOT Hybrids!! “God saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth” “it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth”. God was sorry that He had made MAN.

    Genesis says there were giants in those days and also afterwards. Another huge problem is that the word translated “giants” in Genesis is also used in Numbers 13:33 of which states that these “giants” are the children of Anak, of whom are human beings!

    Let’s take a look at Jude and 2 Peter!! The word angel means messenger and John the Baptist, a MAN, is called an angel/messenger according to the text. So too were the angels/messengers in Jude and 2 Peter, they were also MEN!!

    In Jude verse 6 the “messengers” which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. – this is referring to men!

    In 2 Peter we see the chapter begins with talking about men, false prophets and teachers among the people, and their fate is swift destruction.  We then see in the next verse talk about messengers that sinned and we’re delivered into chains of darkness.

    Who is Jude and Peter referring to? Read Jeremiah 23 and it becomes quite clear!

    23:9 My heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness…11 for both prophet and priests are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD. — God says HIS HOUSE, He was talking about His messengers the prophets and priests, who did not keep their habitation with God but left to speak lies.

    Verse 12 Wherefore their way shall be unto as slippery ways in darkness, they shall be driven on and fall therein…verse 14 they are unto me as Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Jude and Peter continue on as well after talking about God’s messengers, sighting also Sodom and Gomorrah!! Peter is clearly speaking about false teachers that were rising up at that time after Christ’s death, he was then sighting what happened to the prophets in Jeremiah and how the fate of them would be the same fate as the current false teachers, they would become like Sodom and Gomorrah!!

    I will say it again, to believe in fallen angels is to create false gods! Men are to fear only God, because He ALONE exists with Powers. The Israelites had many adversaries, phonetic pronunciation in Hebrew saw-tawn. These adversaries included, first and foremost themselves when they would follow after their own lusts and desires, second other people and tribes were saw-tawns, and third God’s devoted angels that brought down punishments and curses unto them.

    Let’s be real here! The books of the bible were disputed and so was doctrine,  but Constantine wanted only ONE doctrine. Pagan converts were in charge of the books and their translations and they murdered those who disputed their doctrine and also destroyed the original texts. Utilizing a lexicon is most important if you want to get to the bottom of things. The English word Satan shouldn’t even exist in the bible!! Another great example is the idea of the human soul. Those pagan converts responsible for translation loved Plato and it was his philosophy that they followed, not the plain and simple texts in the OT that clearly state the idea of an immortal soul is pure vanity. If you don’t get to the bottom of mistranslations you have nothing but mass contradiction in the bible!!

    #819140
     t8 
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    Jodi, this view could be correct, but there are still major issues of flaws that need to be sorted out. If they cannot be reconciled, then this view should be taken with precaution. Not written off, but put on the shelf until all questions can be answered, or at least the main questions.

    Because I am only interested in the truth and not interested in proving myself as being correct, I would like to go through this theory with you and others if they want.

    Perhaps I could ask questions, one at a time regarding this theory. Then we can see if together we are able to answer sufficiently within the context of this theory?

    #819145
     Jodi 
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    Hi t8, that sounds great! That is one thing that is always a challenge, so many things connect to form an individual’s understanding, breaking things down is a good idea. My understanding has changed greatly over the years and it has led to scriptures making more sense and being more connected. It’s crazy how when a particular element to a belief changes and you end up looking at so many other scriptures with a different perspective and they seem to connect and make a heck of a lot more sense.

    #819147
     Jodi 
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    Okay, I am just a few minutes into the last video posted and I see major problems already. The youtuber must have forgotten that Noah was himself a direct descendant of Seth! So in fact Seth’s offspring were indeed sons of God, as Noah being said to be without blemish must be considered at the time of the flood to be one of God’s children. The youtuber also said “the union between the sons of God and the daughters of men caused the corruption of flesh”. He said “It’s quite clear that the literal flesh of humanity became corrupt at this time.” I’m sorry, this is nonsense IMO!! Adam and Eve sinned and brought corruption into the world and their son Cain was a murderer! The title of this video is the “Nephilim Origin of Genetic Evil.” Wickedness certainly was in the mind and actions of Cain long before the giants were born. There is nothing in scripture that says these giants were hybrids and not men, but yet this youtuber wants to preach that we should not add to what is not in the text. Since the scripture clearly states that the offspring are men, that they are flesh, their fathers were obviously human too. The world was already corrupt obviously, but it didn’t becoming fully corrupt, except for Noah, until the sons of God became sinful when they married sinful wives. The idea is not that angels sinned by mating with humans, the idea is that they sinned against God before that, so if that’s the case these angels certainly would not be called sons of God at this point now would they? At that time they would have been far away from resembly anything like a son of God. However if it were human sons of God, it would be upon and thereafter that they took the daughters of men that they became corrupted.

    #819151
     Jodi 
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    I feel like the guy in the video is disproving his opposition through using the opposition’s worste arguments, which makes him really not disproving anything at all!! I do like how he disposes the mistranslation of Genesis 4:26, my Hebrew Mechanical translation uses the words, “at that time they pierced to call out in the title of “YHWH”.” Who is “they”?  This same verse at the end of chapter 4 tells us that Seth begot Enos, then chapter 5 goes into generations from Adam to Noah. In chapter 5 we see when the generations come to Enoch we are told that Enoch walked with God, and then we reach Noah at the end of the chapter. So what we see in chapter 5 leading up to 6 are two righteous men descended from Adam, descended from Seth. Paul teaches that those that are led by the Spirit of God these are the sons of God. Scripture also teaches that God is a Father and those that follow Him are His children. The youtuber’s point about verse 26 has no legitimate point!! Israelites were to see themselves as children of God, and being given in the text leading up to chapter 6, scripture gives the example of 2 righteous men. Wouldnt it be clear unto those of  Israel who follow God that the sons of God in chapter six are referring to their own descendants? Moreover these same Israelites were told not to mingle with pagan daughters or else they would be punished!! What a clear message it is for Israel in chapter 6 if in fact the sons of God are their own descendants! The fact that the text refers to all the people, of whom God wants to destroy in the flood, as humans, makes we wonder how this topic is even up for debate!! The youtuber’s next point in the video after speaking about 4:26 is also absurd IMO. He brings out the point that the translation of the daughters of men means daughters of humans coming from Adam. Then he says “wouldn’t the line of Seth be considered the sons and daughters of Adam? Again one must read into the text what’s not there.” This isn’t even a point of anything he is trying to make!! Yes obviously the sons of God if they were humans, regardless of if they were from Seth or not, would be from Adam. To then go on and accuse that this is putting into the text what is not there is a little maddening, lol!! Are people too caught up in the fact that he is showing his intelligence through uncovering mistranslation to not recognize that he really isn’t making a point at all to establish his view?? What is not there is a mention of evil spirit beings that mated with humans and created hybrid children. What is there is that the individuals were being identified as being righteous, hence why they were referred to as being sons of God.  God destroyed all the wicked people on earth of which included this offspring, all these people were in the text referred to as humans!! The point of using the words “sons of God” in this chapter is to denote human righteousness and how that righteousness was destroyed when they took the wrong wives. Is that not the point?? You had sons of God, then they mated with woman, then the whole earth became wicked, except Noah. Like I said, chapter 6 with the mention of 2 righteous descendants of Seth leading up to it, would appear to be a most profound message to those Israelites who were seeking to follow the laws of Moses.

    #819152
     Jodi 
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    To add another point, pagan rulers claimed themselves to be hybrids, to be sons of gods. The spirit world mating with humans was a common held belief by the pagans!! IMO it would seem quite evident that the writer of the Book of Enoch incorperated false pagan beliefs in order to create a new and false understanding to what occurred in Genesis 6.

    Is it possible that just like Job many Israelites were self-righteous? Absolutely, it is quite evident in scripture! God used His angels to bring forth cursing, these angels were known as adversaries to the Israelites. If you are a self righteous Israelite, one who even might elude to pagan ideas as we have seen many times that they did, you just might begin to view these adversaries as evil beings now wouldn’t you?.. instead of righteous angels following the commands of God to bring forth justifiable punishment. IMO this is exactly how the idea of fallen angels came about!! So what we have is the creation of a false doctrine created out of pagan ideas and self righteousness. What then results is the fear of false beings having powers that only God says He has, and thus a Christian doctrine of belief in false god’s. What did Enochic Judaism teach, pure selfrighteosness, that evil came into the world by fallen angels, not by what scripture repeatedly states, man himself following after his own desires and lusts. Recap– Israelites were being justifiably punished by God, but instead they turned the truth to believe they were being unjustifiable cursed by evil beings/fallen angels. They then proclaim that it if they are bad it is because of these fallen angels. Good Grief!!

    #819153
     Jodi 
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    Who were the sons of God?

    If  they were fallen angels I fear all is lost!!

    Righteousness is life, sin is death. The resurrection and immortality is our hope. To dwell eternally on earth with God in our presence amongst us, is our hope.

    Immortality is achieved through perfection is it not? If you are not made perfect and you find yourself in the presence of the Almighty God, doesn’t it say you would burn up, as only the righteous can be in His presence? Are we to believe that God’s righteous standards don’t apply to His angels? Are angels immortal? If they in fact are, wouldnt they have been perfected, so how could they fall from God?

    Just some thoughts.

    Doesn’t the message of fallen angels tell us that you can be an immortal being in the awesome presence of God, but then turn and sin? Being immortal and able to be in the presence of God wasn’t good enough? What a rather wicked idea, what does that say about our Eternal Father? He cannot keep his perfected angels righteous? Where then is our hope?

    #819156
     t8 
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    Haven’t got time to read all your posts now, but will reply to the last one.

    You fear that if they are fallen angels, then all is lost. But just about every ancient writing out there says they were. The Book of Enoch, The Book of Giants, The Book of Jared, etc. Of course there is always the possibilities that they are wrong. These extra-biblical writings were found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and other places. It also appears that Jude and others quote verbatim in the New Testament. The quote in (Jude 14-15) & (1 Enoch 1:9) is as follows:

    “In the seventh (generation) from Adam Enoch also prophesied these things, saying: ‘Behold, the Lord came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners spoke against him’.”

    So how did Jude come to know the words of Enoch? Surely it wasn’t orally passed on. Wikipedia says this:

    The Book of Enoch was considered as scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4) and by many of the early Church Fathers, such as Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus and Tertullian, who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ. However, later Fathers denied the canonicity of the book, and some even considered the Epistle of Jude uncanonical because it refers to an “apocryphal” work.

    My view is that truth was more closely preserved earlier than later on when the Book wasn’t considered scripture. Later on was around the time that the Trinity Doctrine developed and became a statement of faith. Also the fruit was bad in that time. The so-called Church became a political power that oppressed many.

    Have to go now, but will continue later.

    #819157
     t8 
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    Immortality is achieved through perfection is it not? If you are not made perfect and you find yourself in the presence of the Almighty God, doesn’t it say you would burn up, as only the righteous can be in His presence? Are we to believe that God’s righteous standards don’t apply to His angels? Are angels immortal? If they in fact are, wouldnt they have been perfected, so how could they fall from God?

    What is the reason for questioning righteous standard toward the angels? I believe that God does hold them to his standard. Except he is not merciful with them because they have tasted of the kingdom.

     It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

    If this is true of men, then it perhaps explains why angels were not offered salvation.

    #819158
     t8 
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    Doesn’t the message of fallen angels tell us that you can be an immortal being in the awesome presence of God, but then turn and sin? Being immortal and able to be in the presence of God wasn’t good enough? What a rather wicked idea, what does that say about our Eternal Father? He cannot keep his perfected angels righteous? Where then is our hope?

    Why are you saying this? Not following where you are getting this from?

    #819159
     t8 
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    They then proclaim that it if they are bad it is because of these fallen angels. Good Grief!!

    Adam blamed Eve and she blamed the serpent. Good grief there too right?

    #819195
     Jodi 
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    Hi t8,

    I have some questions about the book of Enoch, if the fallen angels are in chains reserved in darkness than how are they influencing the world?

    The book of Enoch talks about specific angels and the knowledge they are said to give man! I think this is blasphemous!! God gives knowledge to man and in the book of Enoch it specifically denotes certain fallen angels as giving knowledge that in scripture God is said to give man. Not cool man! God gives knowledge and man then uses it as he sees fit, often times using it for his own selfish gain. God brings knowledge and wealth and then He punishes those who turn and use it for evil. Christ was the only man given God’s gifts who overcame the will of man and stayed perfectly loyal to God’s will.

    Can a book contain things that are both true and false? Absolutely! If a book says things that are known passed down truths, but then are combined with false teachings, doesn’t that aid the false teachings to be seen more likely as being true? Absolutely!

    I find it important to note that Jude does fit well with Jeremiah and the human messengers that fell. Jude does speak the same as Enoch about Enoch’s prophecy of God’s judgment to the ungodly, however Jude just after this goes against the ideas of the book of Enoch entirely!! He says that the ungodly men are that way because they FOLLOW their NATURAL INSTINCTS.

    My post regarding some thoughts in regards to fallen angels and Immortality was coming from things I have read on traditional Christian beliefs and how much of it just doesn’t make sense with scripture. Also what I read about the Enochic Jews and their beliefs doesn’t either. If the angels were in the presence of God to me that would mean they were perfected. You can’t fall from perfection. Jesus was perfected by the things he suffered and because of that he became an eternal son of God and dwells with our Heavenly Father in His presence.  Am I to believe that Christ could one day fall too? We see in scripture that God has to give his heavenly angels, who are also said to be in the presence of God, direct directions. Their perfection would seem to be in that they follow God’s orders that they rely on God for decision making in their actions and in their actions they are loyal. Mortal human messengers like in the book of Jeremiah do not have this same loyalty or perfection. We are under God’s plan, I believe that His messengers He uses to carry out that plan are perfected, just as Christ is.

    Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent, I would say good grief to that as well, they didn’t take responsibility. What did the serpent represent in Genesis? Are you familiar with the human truine brain and the reptilian brain that represents one component of it? It’s interesting and it aligns with scripture where we are told we are beasts, following after our own lusts and desires. Jude said the ungodly men followed not the Spirit of God but their NATURAL instincts, which is just what serpents do!  Why man is repeatedly called or likened to being a serpent in scripture? That’s a huge connection! Serpents with their forked tongues, are just like men following after their own instincts, and men when they lie are likened to that of a serpent. Our great adversary is our own nature and when we follow our own will and rely on our own imagination and not the truth of God, we fall. Man deceives himself following his own ideas. The serpent in Genesis undoubtedly represents the reptilian brain that exists in man, the component within man he must overcome. When death was brought forth it truly became a curse, making man all the more weaker to follow his reptilian brain.

    #819210
     Jael 
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    Hi all,

    I have looked into the issue of ‘Sons of God’ and ‘Son of God’ and there is clear evidence that these terms SIMPLY MEAN ‘Anyone who does the works of Almighty God: Yahweh: the Father’.

    This definition comes from the point of view of ‘Who, or What, is a Son’.

    To understand what this means we must first stop thinking in human terms and think rather in Spiritual term.

    A ‘Son’, therefore, is an ‘imitation, imitator, reflection, image’ of the behaviours and spiritual nature of the originator.

    And ‘Yes,’ once the spiritual is defined it can then be referred down to the physical:

    Who is a perfect ‘Son’ to a Father?

    Is it an offspring? Well, every godly Father hopes his offspring is an imitation for himself… Every reverend head wishes his underling does the works he unselfish does…

    The Holy Angels ARE ‘Sons of God’… They spiritually hear the word of God and DO THOSE WORKS… However, they cannot fail… They are PERFECT SPIRITUAL SONS but are not an IMAGE of God. They are as highly intelligent, incredibly powerful, immensely abled workers who carry the power and authority of the word of God. Any failure in their tasks would mean defamation of those powers and the authority with which they are invested.

    Failure is not an option. Failure or self-willed acts can only be due to some element of subordination – which God does not tolerate. Reward for success is a continued retention in the heavenly realm and the pleasure of being used by God to do HIS WILL.

    By contrast, human ‘Sons of God’ ARE made in the image of God. Humans are ‘made a little lower than the Angels’ in power, authority, and latitude but have full self-will – this is a most wonderful ability that could well be the enticement behind the rebel angels who followed the one called ‘Satan’.

    Humans, mankind, are free to build their own ‘world’ and be ‘worshipped’ by those in that ‘world’… Angels cannot do this. Nor are Angeles ever to be ‘worshipped’ – they know this and fear would anyone attempt to do so to them: ‘Do not do this: Worship God alone’

    (P.s. Jesus DID NOT RECEIVE WORSHIP from others such as the disciples of people he healed. The misconception comes from desperate trinitarians but it can easily be seen to be false as the Jews knew also to only worship God, and, as they properly saw Jesus as a man (though, because of over-zealous tradition by the laws of Moses, they feared his power and authority – which Jesus clearly stated was NOT OF HIMSELF BUT due to the Father working in him) would have arrested him for blasphemy, if not Sedition as well.)

    Jesus directly, called himself, ‘Son of God’ because he was ‘doing the works of his Father’.

    Scriptures tells us that ‘anyone who follows the Holy Spirit (The Holy Spirit of the Father, Holy Spirit of God) ARE CHILDREN OF GOD’.

    I hear timourous arguments about Jesus being ‘THE SON of God’ and that therefore ‘CHILDREN OF GOD’ do not count as the same… The question to asks these trinitarians (yes, then again) is how they arrive at this defence of ther clam – referring only to scriptures and not their man-made doctrinal creed: They cannot, nor will be able to state!

    The question of Who is a Son of God is over-egged. It’s not hard to answer except if there is a secondary agenda proposal by the objector.

    God loves his sons… His human sons, mankind, and national son: Israel. He is willing to forgive them as a good human Father forgives his human sons but does not withhold punishment as a relevant lesson. Israel is a national Son among all the nations on earth, God mourned over their ill-discipline but rewarded them when they turned from their wayward manner.

    Finally, Jesus as ‘the ONLY’ or ‘begotten’ son of God. Scriptures refers to this AFTER Jesus completes his task of dying for the sins of mankind (Sin of Adam) and is raised from the dead, glorified into an immortal body and taken up to heaven. Jesus ‘PROVED HIMSELF’ as a full on obedient Son – the ONLY human to do this – and quite rightly is afforded the greatest title over all others of mankind.

    #819213
     Jael 
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    t8, since the book of Enoch is not in the holy scriptures that we can all share the readings and interpretations together, I think it is nappropriate to bring any supposed testament or validity to the table on this book. Why, Can I bring in the book of ‘Thomas’? No! ALL EVIDENCE required for proof of all subjects are in the scriptures… Obviously digging into the rituals and beliefs of the Jews/Israelites, Hebrews, is paramount togsibjnv proper insight into the correct readings and interpretations – but not to bring in ‘other material’ that makes some other claim.

    No doubt many here will try to point and say, ‘You did exactly what you are showing us not to do!’ – but I say, ‘No!! What I show you is ONLY holy bible SCRIPTURAL.

    Jodi draws down the demon angels from the power and authority invested I them by Almighty God for doing HIS BIDDING… Calls then ‘Men’ and deconstructs ther purpose in the spirit realm and tasks n the physical world down to ‘false gods’… which I never, nor would ever, say. INDIRECTY, of course, ‘God’ means such as ‘Mighty Hero’, ‘Head of system of things’, ‘Creator and life giver’, ‘Judge’, ‘Most glorious, magnificent, beyond all norms’ all in a CONTEXT…

    A judge is ‘God’ in his courtroom! Prove this wrong (do not go outside of the context of ‘his courtroom’ nor appeal to GREATER POWERS outside of his authority!

    In contrast to limiting contexts, Almighty God: Yahweh, is ‘GOD OF ALL whom are called gods’… Detractors to the truth never refer to this verse due to its very truth… It testifies that ‘others are called gods’ as Jesus Christ pointed out to the Jews… Oh, not referred to by detractors – wonder why?

    Try, y’all, to stop seeing scriptures in human minds but rather the spiritual – Jesus virtually always spoke spiritual which is why he said the many: ‘Why do you not understand my mode of speech?’ (Just as the many here do not understand the scriptural uttering a I present courtesy of the holy scriptures fueld by the Holy Spirit of Yahweh God.

    ‘Sons’, as I pointed out in my last post, simple means, “He who does the will of the Father’. To decry this meaning is to be thinking in earthly human terms of PROCREATION – Spirits DO NOT PROCREATE.

    As for the nephilim, scriptures says those rebel Angels ‘MADE BODIES FOR THEMSELVES’… This is CREATION. They could not create a spirit themselves (repeat: they cannot PROCREATE!) so they put THEIR OWN SPIRIT into those bodies.

    Some time after, Almighty God banned angels from coming into the physical world of their own will. They can, however, be INVITED into a living body coexisting and distorting the minds and the spirit of the owner. The owner can resists if they are strong minded and godfearing enough – as Jesus IS.

    These original sons of God were classed as ‘Holy Angels’ but their defection has déclassé them now as ‘Demonic Angels’.

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