Are the sons of God the angels?

This topic contains 170 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 2 days, 5 hours ago.

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  • #819541
     Jael 
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    I guess we could test the theory that Enoch was the first man to fly… in a chariot!

    The reality is rather more ‘down to earth’!

    Enoch died in a whirlwind that took his body miles away where no one ever found it – buried under mounds of desert sand, perhaps.

    Yet many will ‘Test the Spirit’ that he ‘Never died and was taken up to heaven’… Simply because the scriptures says he was ‘no more’!

    Yet scriptures states clearly that ‘No one has ever gone up into heaven who did not first descend’.. Except Jesus Christ – because he DID descend… Into Hades.

    The ‘descend’ is falsified by trinitarians to claim it means ‘From Heaven’. But it means ‘died’.

    Abraham died. Enoch died. Moses died. Samuel died. David died. Solomon died. Daniel died. Ezekiel and the other prophets died.

    These were all ‘near’ sons of God. Yet as holy as they were they were NOT Sons of God because the SIN OF ADAM was in them. Only the sacrifice and death of a sunless man could release them from that bondage – only when Jesus Christ did that could they be classed as ‘Sons of God’ and become ‘Heirs of God – brothers with Christ Jesus’.

    #819542
     t8 
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    Cool. Back down to business. I will reply to this later as I have other more pressing things right now. 🙂

    #819573
     Jael 
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    Yes it is worth a look. They were angels and the word ‘strange flesh’ could mean that rather than opposite sex.

    So you are saying that you were persuaded to think that there was some distance worth travelling, linguistically and scripturally, in persuing the fetted idea that Holy Angels might be Fallen Angels because some nutter posted his putrid idea in a utube video?

    Wasnt it ‘obvious’ that the Angels were Holy from the scripture and events?

    Where does ‘Strange Flesh’ come into the equation (or ‘your persuation’)?

    By the way, then, is there a thread about ‘God is a woman’… when ‘Woman’ is shown in scripture to be ‘Helpmate for a Man’!

    Why would you post a video on this as a topic for debate? Or, ok, have a category for ‘Weird Beliefs’…

    But I think of this category as a serious one… Therefore ‘investigating’ what is CLEARLY an imposition of Scriptures is ‘out of bounds’ for this category of this website, much like you might say if someone started a thread about not believing in God…

    Let me ask you again in another way… What is or was the specific claim that drew your attention from the video that the Angels in Sodom may have been fallen Angels – and did you really think there was merit in posting a ridiculous video that made such a claim.:

    ‘Test everything’ says scriptures…

    But Proverbs 26 has something to say about how to address those who exhibit views that are not worth pursuing.

    I don’t see how you think discussing trinity is something worth a click-back in the same vein as ‘Fallen Angels in Sodom saved LOT’.

    #819574
     t8 
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    Jael, when you quote my text, try selecting it, then hit the quote button on the toolbar if you are in Visual mode. If you are in Text mode, try the same, but click b-quote button. Then you will get something like the following:

    Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here, Quoted text here.

    #819575
     t8 
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    So you are saying that you were persuaded to think that there was some distance worth travelling, linguistically and scripturally, in persuing the fetted idea that Holy Angels might be Fallen Angels because some nutter posted his putrid idea in a utube video?

    Wasnt it ‘obvious’ that the Angels were Holy from the scripture and events?

    Where does ‘Strange Flesh’ come into the equation (or ‘your persuation’)?

    By the way, then, is there a thread about ‘God is a woman’… when ‘Woman’ is shown in scripture to be ‘Helpmate for a Man’!

    Why would you post a video on this as a topic for debate? Or, ok, have a category for ‘Weird Beliefs’…

    If you paid attention to what I said and what the video said, then it is plain that no one is saying they were fallen angels. This idea has come solely from your own head. Please pay attention and discuss the topic at hand. Flying off the handle due to your own misconceptions is not a good look Jael. It makes you look like the nutter. Please remove the log and please stop philosophising.

    #819581
     t8 
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    #819582
     t8 
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    You are talking about the above video right Jael?

    If so, where does it say that the angels that saved Lot are fallen angels? Where does it say that anywhere?

    #819595
     Jodi 
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    Hey t8, I broke down what the dude said in the video, and I think that is where fallen angels came in as relating to the angels that Lot encountered. Think through what the guy is saying. He says the strange FLESH in Jude must be men lusting after the angels that came to Lot. Are these angels really so stupid that they would pound on Lots door asking Lot to bring forth holy angels so they could have their way with them? Indeed these men would have been pretty stupid if they were thinking they could actually force sex onto righteous angels. Or did they actually, like the text shows, just think they were men?.. and the reference to strange flesh in Jude is talking about beastiality? This guy is soo grasping for evidence it’s horrid? So if the men were not stupid because they believed the angels were not holy but rather fallen angels, well that doesn’t make any sense either!! The fallen angels wouldn’t be making company with Lot, now would they? They would be making company with the wicked men and giving freely to these men’s desires, which is not at all what transpired! Another problem with what this guy says is that according to him, fallen angels appear and exist in human flesh and he says in that human flesh come all the wicked desires. If these fallen angels transform themselves into human flesh than the men arent lusting after strange flesh now are they? He makes a point to define strange flesh and recognizes that it has to mean angels, but then he contradicts himself when he identifies the angels as changing themselves into human flesh.

    #819596
     Jael 
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    t8, I think I will spare your blushes and not comment on how embarrassing this whole discussion on a nonexistent theme concerning ‘Fallen Angels’ in Sodom is getting.

    It seems you have got Jodi dwelling on wayward aspects of someone’s ill-fertile imagination.

    #819597
     t8 
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    Hey t8, I broke down what the dude said in the video, and I think that is where fallen angels came in as relating to the angels that Lot encountered.

    Wrong. Clearly you are not following this correctly and then react in a negative way to your own misconception. Could I suggest discussing a topic that you can follow and can have some positive input?

    Think through what the guy is saying. He says the strange FLESH in Jude must be men lusting after the angels that came to Lot. Are these angels really so stupid that they would pound on Lots door asking Lot to bring forth holy angels so they could have their way with them?

    First, it is the Bible that says they are angels and that they were sent to deliver Lot. It is also the Bible that says that the people that lusted after them. So as crazy as it sounds, it is the Bible that is being so-called crazy, and so it is up to us to understand what it is saying. But here are some points to consider that take away your crazy view:

    1. Angels can appear as men and we can even entertain them unawares according to scripture. So if the people of Sodom wanted their way with these beings, then it may be because they looked like men. I mean if they were angels of light or in that form, then I imagine a different outcome. And if they are holy angels in physical form and look like men, then they are probably perfect specimens.
    2. They could actually be men who are messengers. Then that begs the question, where did they come from?
    3. As for strange flesh.  We have two options:
      a) Same gender
      b) Different kind of flesh.

    There it is Jael. Not hard to break it down. Nothing crazy, just trying to sort exactly what the text is saying. Remember, the text says it, not the video. The video merely repeats it and gives the view that strange flesh in this instance is not same sex, but different kind.

    To recap. The angels sent to deliver Lot in Genesis 19 are not considered fallen in that video and by anyone that I have ever heard teach on the subject. Rather, it is the watchers / sons of God in Genesis 6 that are considered fallen angels. If you cannot follow the video Jael, then can I offer some advice. Discuss a topic that you can follow and understand. It is time-wasting when people try to discuss a topic when they have little understanding of it. It seems I have spent most of my time having to correct you multiple times on the same basic flaw you hold on to. If you want to teach, then teach that which you know well would be my advice.

    t8, I think I will spare your blushes

    lol. Serious. Remember what Jesus said about the log.

    #819598
     t8 
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    @jael

    The rest of your post is not worth discussing as it appears to be based in this misunderstanding that these angels were fallen angels. I would like to remind you that the video and other teachers do not say these angels were fallen, rather it is these who are fallen.

    Genesis 6

    And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

    That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

    And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

    There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

    You are mixing up Genesis 6 with Genesis 19 which says:

    Genesis 19

    The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.”

    “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.”

    But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.”

    ………

    10 But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. 11 Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door.

    12 The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, 13 because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”

    14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry[a] his daughters. He said, “Hurry and get out of this place, because the Lord is about to destroy the city!” But his sons-in-law thought he was joking.

    15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, “Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished.”

    #819599
     t8 
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    To discuss this without wasting time, you need to understand what is being said Jael.

    Get with the program as the saying goes.

    Could we get away from all this philosophising and misconceptionising? (Yes I made that second word up).

    #819600
     t8 
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    Ahh sorry, my bad. I thought Jody’s post was Jael’s. So I answered in such fashion as thinking he was still clinging to the belief that the guy was teaching these angels as being fallen angels. I will answer your post, but probably have answered most already in previous two posts as it is probably applicable. But will go through and answer anything I haven’t addressed.

    #819601
     t8 
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    If these fallen angels transform themselves into human flesh than the men arent lusting after strange flesh now are they? He makes a point to define strange flesh and recognizes that it has to mean angels, but then he contradicts himself when he identifies the angels as changing themselves into human flesh.

    Perhaps you too have missed the point being made too. If angels can transform into physical form like Jesus who after the resurrection ate food and during the transfiguration was in glorified form, then can I suggest the obvious point that a physical angel may look very similar to a man. Perhaps even indistinguishable apart from perhaps the lack of corruption. I mean did not Jesus walk among the disciples after the resurrection and was not immediately recognised as being any different to an ordinary man. Yet in Heaven, his face shines like the sun. Could it not be that when a glorified being comes to Earth, they can take the form of an earthly being. Perhaps that is even necessary to interface with men without them falling over and not being blinded by the glory of God.

    #819602
     t8 
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    Hey t8, I broke down what the dude said in the video, and I think that is where fallen angels came in as relating to the angels that Lot encountered. Think through what the guy is saying. He says the strange FLESH in Jude must be men lusting after the angels that came to Lot. Are these angels really so stupid that they would pound on Lots door asking Lot to bring forth holy angels so they could have their way with them? Indeed these men would have been pretty stupid if they were thinking they could actually force sex onto righteous angels.

    Again, they thought they were men because they came in physical form and probably looked like men. If an angel can be entertained unaware and if an angel came in physical form to your residence, then you would assume it was a man too. Why, because you are not expecting a physical being to be an angel are you, so you just assume it is a man.

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